How did we fall into the material world?

Rathin Mandal, 14th May 2013

Hare Krishna,

Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Srila Gurudeva and Gurumataji,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

We say that modes of material nature is there only in the material world,
But when we decided to enjoy separately from Krishna, look for our identity separate of Krishna and to lord the Manifestation ourself.
How should this nature of us be understood which is independent of modes of material nature?

your Servant
Rathin

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 15th May 2013

Dear Rathin Mandal,

Hare Krishna,

Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Yes, it is correct that the modes of material nature do not exist in the spiritual world.
But free will, that exists in the spiritual world. The desire to enjoy separately and independently from Krishna is the root cause of the living entity’s bondage in the material world. When the living entity desires to enjoy in this way, then the living entity then comes under the modes of material nature and is transferred to the material world.

In purport to SB 4.29.65, Srila Prabhuda wrote:

kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga-vāñchā kare

nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

(Prema-vivarta)

Actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the supreme enjoyer. When a living entity wants to imitate Him, he is given a chance to satisfy his false desire to lord it over material nature. That is the beginning of his downfall. As long as he is within this material atmosphere, he has a subtle vehicle in the form of the mind, which is the stockpile of all kinds of material desires. Such desires become manifest in different bodily forms. Śrīla Nārada Muni requests the King to accept this fact from him because Nārada is an authority. The conclusion is that the mind is the storehouse of our past desires, and we have this present body due to our past desires. Similarly, whatever we desire in this present body will be expressed in a future body. Thus the mind is the source of different kinds of bodies.

If the mind is purified by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one will naturally in the future get a body that is spiritual and full of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such a body is our original form, as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirms, jīvera ‘svarūpa’ haya — kṛṣṇera ‘nitya-dāsa’: [Cc. Madhya 20.108] “Every living entity is constitutionally an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.” If a person is engaged in the devotional service of the Lord, he is to be considered a liberated soul even in this life. This is confirmed by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī:

īhā yasya harer dāsye

karmaṇā manasā girā

nikhilāsv apy avasthāsu

jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate

“One who engages in the transcendental service of the Lord in body, mind and words is to be considered liberated in all conditions of material existence.” (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.187) The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is based on this principle. We must teach people to absorb themselves always in the service of the Lord because that position is their natural position. One who is always serving the Lord is to be considered already liberated. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (14.26):

māḿ ca yo ‘vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatityaitān

brahma-bhuyāya kalpate

“One who always engages in the spiritual activities of unalloyed devotional service at once transcends the modes of material nature and is elevated to the spiritual platform.” The devotee is therefore above the three modes of material nature and is even transcendental to the brāhmaṇa platform. A brāhmaṇa may be infected by the two baser modes — namely rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. A pure devotee, who is free from all material desires experienced on the mental platform and who is also free from empiric philosophical speculation or fruitive activity, is always above material conditioning and is always liberated.

——end purport —-
Plus, Srila Gurudeva’s answer here is very instructive, worth meditating on.

This is from TTFD dated 4th Nov 2009.
Have the category of souls known as nitya-baddha always been in the material hemisphere, hence the term “eternally conditioned”?

According to the philosophy of some Gaudiya Vaisnava groups this is the case. They say that the nitya-baddhas have never ever been in the spiritual world, thus the term “eternally conditioned” and that the nitya-siddhas have never left Krishna’s association. They say that the nitya-baddhas have been in a place known as the tatashta-shakti from where they descended into the material world of their own free choice. However, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada states that we were once face to face with Sri Krishna in the spiritual planets, that we fell down to become little imitation lords here, and that we are then known as nitya-baddha, eternally conditioned. What is the exact situation of the living being?

Question No.2 : The jivatmas in the spiritual world decided by their own free will to depart. They were sac-cid-ananda vigraha: eternally in full knowledge and bliss. How and why could they they have decided by their own free will to leave Krishna’s association, since everything in the spiritual world is fully spiritual and the material influence of maya or illusion is conspicuous by her absence? Though he has a free choice to depart as he desires [Free-will always been the prerogative of the living being as well as his dharma- pure loving servants of the Supreme Person Krishna,], how could he have possibly been influenced to do so? For example, a split second second decision to leave due to temptation of being an enjoying over lord in the heavenly planets. Is this not some kind of material maya? Would he not have known the consequences due to his higher spiritual aware state of knowledge? Why would he have wanted to leave Krishna’s blissful association?

Answer:

The reason that many devotees get confused over the terms nitya siddha (eternally liberated) and nitya baddha (eternally conditioned) is that they consider them from within the context of time. In other words in material consciousness we are conditioned by kala or time into thinking that there are such things as past, present, and future. If we remember that in the liberated state there is no influence of time, that there is simply the eternal present with no past or future, then we can begin to understand how one can be eternally conditioned or eternally liberated and can switch from one status to the other.

To say that the conditioned souls have never been in the spiritual world with Krishna is anti-sastric and absurd when we consider that Lord Caitanya states that the constitutional nature of every living being is that he is the eternal servant of Krishna.

The eternally liberated souls in the spiritual existence have the independence to either love Krishna or leave Krishna. There has to be a choice. Otherwise love cannot exist, because love is voluntary. As long as the independence of free choice is there, there has to be a possibility of misusing that free choice. And possibility means that there must be certain degree of probability as well. Of course in this case the probability would be smallest possible percentage of 1 divided by infinity (1/?). But if we apply this infinitesimal percentage against the infinite number of living beings who inhabit the spiritual world, guess what we get. We get an infinite number of living beings who misuse their free will and give up the Lord’s association. (1/? x ? = ?)

At the boundary between the spiritual and material worlds time does not exist. Therefore the crossing of the living being over this boundary cannot be measured in time. This means that there is no moment in time when he entered the material world. In other words, if he is in the material world there is no moment in time when he entered it and he has therefore been there eternally. Hence, the term “eternally conditioned”. And when he chooses to surrender to Krishna and go back to Godhead he enters into that realm where there is no past or future. Therefore when he goes back to Godhead, he was always there. Hence the term “eternally liberated”.

Of course, as long as our thought patterns are conditioned by time we cannot fully comprehend these things. But if you will chant Hare Krishna regularly with love and devotion your consciousness will be liberated from the constraints of time, and you will be able to gradually realize these things in full.

And another answer from TTFD dated 29 July 2012:

“In this regard it is confirmed by Srila Prabhupada in a lecture he gave in Mayapur on 11 February 1976 that every living entity is originally nitya-siddha or eternally liberated. But sometimes just as a king may fall asleep and dream that he is a pauper, the eternally liberated soul, because of his marginal nature, may fall into the illusion that he can enjoy separately from Krishna or God. And just as a dream of only a few seconds can appear to be going on forever, when the soul forgets his identity, his illusioned dream-like state seemingly goes on forever and he is thus designated as nitya-baddha or eternally conditioned. Therefore when the living being does not misuse his free will he is known as nitya-siddha and when he misuses his free will he is known as nitya-baddha. ”

Sincerely,
Mahabhagavat Das

Rathin Mandal, 15th May 2013

Hare Krishna,

Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Srila Gurudeva and Gurumataji,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you very much for the answer Prabhuji. This helps me to understand the subject more clearly.

your Servant
Rathin

Please subscribe to daily inspirational emails from His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari (Writings and lectures archived at sda-archives.com), written fresh every day from his travels around the world sharing the highest spiritual knowledge with everyone. Sign up now at www.backtohome.com

Pray to Lord Krishna or others?

Meenakshi, 03 April 2013

Hare Krishna,

Please accept my humble obeisances
All glories to Sarila Prabhupada,

After reading Gita I came to know that Lord Krishna is Supreme. Prior to that i used to worship Lord Shiva and Maa Durga. Now I am confused, I feel guilty if I stop worshiping Lord Shiva and Maa Durga  but at the same time feel very doubtful if I worship them knowing that Krishna is Supreme personality of Godhead. Please advice.

ys
Meenakshi

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 03 April 2013

Hare Krishna!

Meenakshi Mataji, please don’t worry… Lord Shiva and Mother Durga are father and mother of this material world. Loving parents are always happy to send their children to a good school, good college, good Guru, etc., in fact, parents who are in Krishna consciousness feel themselves successful if their children get the shelter of a pure devotee, and become initiated disciples of a Guru.

Similarly, it is not the purpose of Lord Shiva and Mother Durga to keep sincere devotees of Krishna in this material world. In fact, they have taken up this  very difficult task of taking charge of Krishna’s foolish misguided children. Such misguided persons are kept in the material world so that they don’t cause any impediment in the service of the pure devotees in the spiritual worlds. So, those who get the real mercy (loving mercy or in the form of kicks of Maya) of Mother Durga and Lord Shiva, then they become devotees of Lord Krishna.

So, please kindly throw away this useless feeling of guilt, and make Lord Shiva and Mother Durga very very happy and proud of you by serving Krishna nicely and going back home to Godhead to Krishna – become discharged from this hospital called the material world 🙂

For your personal situation, you can get personal guidance of Srila Gurudeva by writing the specific personal situation to Srila Gurudeva, at sda@backtohome.com. We request that personal situations should not be discussed publicly in this group as personal situation requires specific personal advice and support, and this is not possible in a public forum. Srila Gurudeva and Srimati Gurumata will be in Vrindavan, you please make an attempt to meet them personally there.

Sincerely,
Mahabhagavat Das

Trivikrama Das, 03 April 2013

Hare Krishna!

Thank you for the wonderful explanation, Mahabhagavat Prabhu!

Actually, a devotee of Lord Shiva is not dear to him, but a devotee of Krishna is dear to him.

This is clearly given in the below purport.

quote
SB 4.24.28

yaḥ paraṁ raṁhasaḥ sākṣāt
tri-guṇāj jīva-saṁjñitāt
bhagavantaṁ vāsudevaṁ
prapannaḥ sa priyo hi me

Translation:
Lord Śiva continued: Any person who is surrendered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, the controller of everything — material nature as well as the living entity — is actually very dear to me.

Purport:
Now Lord Śiva explains the reason he has personally come before the princes. It is because all the princes are devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā (7.19):

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ

“After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.”

Lord Śiva is rarely seen by common men, and similarly a person who is fully surrendered unto Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is also very rarely seen because a person who is fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord is very rare (sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ). Consequently, Lord Śiva came especially to see the Pracetās because they were fully surrendered unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva is also mentioned in the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the mantra oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Since Vāsudeva is the ultimate truth, Lord Śiva openly proclaims that one who is a devotee of Lord Vāsudeva, who is surrendered to Lord Kṛṣṇa, is actually very dear to him. Lord Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is worshipable not only by ordinary living entities but by demigods like Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā and others. Yaṁ brahmā-varuṇendra-rudra-marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavaiḥ (Bhāg. 12.13.1): Kṛṣṇa is worshiped by Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, Varuṇa, Indra, Candra and all other demigods. That is also the situation with a devotee. Indeed, one who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness immediately becomes very dear to anyone who is simply finding out and beginning to understand what Kṛṣṇa consciousness actually is. Similarly, all the demigods are also trying to find out who is actually surrendered to Lord Vāsudeva. Because the Pracetā princes were surrendered to Vāsudeva, Lord Śiva willingly came forth to see them.

Lord Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa, is described in Bhagavad-gītā as Puruṣottama. Actually He is the enjoyer (puruṣa) and the Supreme (uttama) as well. He is the enjoyer of everything — the prakṛti and the puruṣa. Being influenced by the three modes of material nature, the living entity tries to dominate material nature, but actually he is not the puruṣa (enjoyer) but prakṛti, as described in Bhagavad-gītā (7.5): apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām. Thus the jīva, or living entity, is actually prakṛti, or the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. Being associated with material energy, he tries to lord it over the material nature. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (15.7):

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke
jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ
manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi
prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

“The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.”

By endeavoring to dominate material nature, the living entity simply struggles hard for existence. Indeed, he struggles so hard to enjoy himself that he cannot even enjoy the material resources. Thus he is sometimes called prakṛti, or jīva, for he is situated in the marginal potency. When the living entity is covered with the three modes of material nature, he is called jīva-saṁjñita. There are two kinds of living entities: one is called kṣara, and the other is akṣara. Kṣara refers to those who have fallen down and become conditioned, and akṣara refers to those who are not conditioned. The vast majority of living entities live in the spiritual world and are called akṣara — they are in the position of Brahman, pure spiritual existence. They are different from those who have been conditioned by the three modes of material nature.

Being above both the kṣara and akṣara, Lord Kṛṣṇa, Vāsudeva, is described in Bhagavad-gītā (15.18) as Puruṣottama. The impersonalists may say that Vāsudeva is the impersonal Brahman, but actually the impersonal Brahman is subordinate to Kṛṣṇa, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (14.27): brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham. That Kṛṣṇa is the source of the impersonal Brahman is also confirmed in Brahma-saṁhitā (5.40): yasya prabhā prabhavato jagadaṇḍa-koṭi. The impersonal Brahman is nothing but the effulgence or bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, and in those bodily rays there are innumerable universes floating. Thus in all respects Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is the Supreme Lord, and Lord Śiva is very satisfied with those who are completely surrendered to Him. Complete surrender is desired by Kṛṣṇa, as He indicates in the last chapter of Bhagavad-gītā (18.66): sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja.

The word sākṣāt, meaning “directly,” is very significant. There are many so-called devotees, but actually they are only karmīs and jñānīs, for they are not directly devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa. The karmīs sometimes offer the results of their activities to Lord Vāsudeva, and this offering is called karmārpaṇam. These are considered to be fruitive activities, for the karmīs consider Lord Viṣṇu to be one of the demigods like Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā. Because they consider Lord Viṣṇu to be on the same level with the demigods, they contend that surrendering to the demigods is as good as surrendering unto Vāsudeva. This contention is denied herein because if it were true, Lord Śiva would have said that surrender unto him, Lord Vāsudeva, Viṣṇu or Brahmā is the same. However, Lord Śiva does not say this because he himself surrenders unto Vāsudeva, and whoever else surrenders unto Vāsudeva is very, very dear to him. This is expressed herein openly. The conclusion is that a devotee of Lord Śiva is not dear to Lord Śiva, but a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa is very dear to Lord Śiva.
unquote

Hence, Meenakshi Mataji, Please rest assured that you have taken the best decision since  The conclusion is that a devotee of Lord Śiva is not dear to Lord Śiva, but a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa is very dear to Lord Śiva.

your servant,
Trivikrama Das

Please subscribe to daily inspirational emails from His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari (Writings and lectures archived at sda-archives.com), written fresh every day from his travels around the world sharing the highest spiritual knowledge with everyone. Sign up now at www.backtohome.com

When and How did the Soul Arrive in the Material World?

Sanjeev, 12th September 2011

Hare Krsna Vaisnavas

Please accept my humble obeisances

All Glories to Srila Praphupada

All Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga

We learn from the Sastras that because of our past deeds in the spiritual world we, as spirit souls, have obtained this material body and have been put into the material world. Do the Sastras say when and how the conditioned souls accepted the material body?

your eternal servant

Sanjeev

Ashutosh Pandey, 13th September 2011

Hare Krsna!

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

We have been captured in this material world since time immemorial….even if someone tells you your exact date of entry into this material world…. how is it going to help you?? What benefit will you get from this information?? Is it going to bring back your forgotten relationship with Krsna without following what others devotees are following??

More intelligent approach is that now you have realised or say know, you are entangled into this material world because of your own sins against Lord Krsna, better accept fault, get surrendered, approach a bonafide guru, follow the instructions and devote this life to serve the Vaishnavas……you have already taken millions and millions of birth for sense gratification..just devote one life for Krsna….

Even though to quench your inquisitiveness: Shastras are meant for God realisation and hence they mention those characters from whose life one can learn a lot to progress in spirituality. Even if one talks about the day he entered into this material world, the time is not going to be same for every one.

Hope this answers your question

your servant,

Ashutosh

Uddhava Presta Das, 13th September 2011

Hare Krsna

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga

An apt answer….

your servant,

uddhava presta das

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 13th September 2011

Hare Krishna Sanjeev Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhu, your question is valid, and it is a nice question also. Ashutosh Prabhu is right that it is not useful to know when exactly.

However, in the spirit of understanding things as they are as per Guru and Shastra, here are a few points to add to Ashutosh Prabhu’s explanation.

Srila Gurudeva has written on this topic also, please read here – switch to the Q&A section – I am not quoting because it is lengthy:

http://www.sda-archives.com/tftd/2009/nov/tftd_110409.html

1. In the spiritual world, time is eternal also, but not like in the material world, in spiritual world, there is no concept of “passing away” – this is mentioned in Brahma Samhita also, Tirtharaja Prabhu had posted on another thread…

“…where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the duration of half a moment….”

2. In the material world, there is a start and finish to everything, and being materially conditioned, we cannot imagine timelessness. So we want to know, when, where, etc. It is out of scope for us, unless we are spiritually advanced. Mundane example is that it is like an ant trying to imagine the extent of our roads and railways and airways and shipping routes.

3. We have been coming and going higher and lower, on different planets, different universes, different bodies, since time immemorial… in other words, practically we have been here so long that it is more than 1000, 10,000, million, billion years. For example, it is said that every living entity starts off as Brahma in a particular universe… one day of Lord Brahma lasts 4.32 billion of our years. Lord Brahma lives for 100 of such years. It is just totally inconceivable for us, right?

4. We have been on and off in 8.4 different million species over and over again.

5. In this lifetime, we have the mercy of Guru and Krishna and have received the seed of Bhakti which has been planted in our heart.

brahmānda bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-krsna-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

“”According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.” CC Madhya 19.151

Please read the purport here:

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/19/151/

I hope this helps. Please let us know if there are any questions, this is a nice topic and should be understood thoroughly. Just the endeavour to understand helps us to advance spiritually, whether we actually understand or not.

your servant,

Mahabhagavat Das

Sanjeev, 13th September 2011

Hare Krsna,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Praphupada.

All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

Many Thanks for the very intuituive answers from Mahabhagavat Das Prabhu and Ashutosh Prabhu. This forum is so spiritually enlivening.

May Krsna bless this forum. Hari Bol.

Adding a thread to this question, if the living entity by the process of bhakti yoga gets a second chance to go back to Godhead, will the living entity have learnt his lessons or is there any chance for him to again rebel against the authority of the Supreme Lord and will want to try to enjoy outside his relationship with the Lord once more – meaning coming back to the material world? Will this not then mean that there is no guarantee that the living entity will stay eternally in the spiritual world – it will all depend on his actions there also?

Please forgive my ignorance.

your eternal servant

Sanjeev

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 13th September 2011

Hare Krishna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for the appreciation. Actually you are making it so nice with your sincere desire to learn and share. Our mission is to know Krishna and make Him known, and this is best done if as many as possible individuals learn properly from bona fide sources and then go out there and teach in words and deeds.

On Friday 31 Oct 2008, Srila Sankarshan Das Adhikari wrote:

“Once having tasted the miseries of this material world and then having regained your original position in the spiritual world you will not make the same mistake twice. Once burned, twice shy. You will not come here again. So now take your human form of life seriously and finish up your business once and for all.”

Then again on 2 Aug 2009, he wrote:

“All of us here in this material world were originally with Krishna in the spiritual world serving Him as His devotees. By misuse of our minute independence we fell down into the cycle of birth and death. Just as it is sometimes said, “Once burned, twice shy,” if we realize our mistake and go back to Godhead, we will not make the same mistake twice. Of course, since we have free will eternally we could fall a second time. But who would stick their hand in the fire a second time after already being burned once?”

your servant,

Mahabhagavat Das

Vishal, 13th September 2011

Hare Krsna,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Praphupada.

All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

Very philosophical answer. The quotes from Srila Gurudeva are indeed very deep thinking. No doubt this forum is helping, I am sure, everybody to learn a lot.

I read a quote from Srila Praphupada (Hawaii, 1969) where he said that in this age of Kali, it is more important to create devotees than to construct temples. So your comments are very valid Praphu – we should learn from bona fide sources before being able to teach others as recommended by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprahu.

Hari Bol

Your eternal servant

Sanjeev

Bhaktarupa Das, 14th September 2011

Dear Mahabhagavat prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeissances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you very much for reminding Srila Gurudeva’s wonderful thought for the day. Infact this reminded me of Srila Gurudeva’s another amazing Thought for the Day titled – “Time Went Backwards” published on Friday 2 January 2009.

http://sda-archives.com/tftd/tftd/2009/jan/tftd_010209.html

Quote:

Today on 31 December 2008 I arrived in Santiago, Chile at 12:55pm flying in from Auckland, New Zealand. The most amazing thing about this journey was that I left Auckland at 5:25pm on 31 December 2008, which is 5 1/2 hours after I arrived in Santiago. I arrived in Santiago before I left Auckland. In other words time went backwards. If I told this to someone who is not familiar with what happens when one crosses the international date line, he would think that I had lost my marbles, that I was crazy. Crossing the international dateline always does uncanny things to one’s calendar no matter which way he crosses it.

There is another crossing point known as the Viraja River, which is the crossing point between the spiritual and material worlds. It acts in ways that are even more amazing and inconceivable than the international date line. On one side of the Viraja, the material side, is the realm of past, present, and future. And on the other side of the Viraja, the spiritual side, there exists the realm of timelessness, described as follows by Srila Prabhupada:

“In the transcendental realm there is no creation and no destruction, and thus the duration of life is eternal unlimitedly. In other words, everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss without deterioration. Since there is no deterioration, there is no past, present and future in the estimation of time. It is clearly stated in this verse that the influence of time is conspicuous by its absence.”

This means that even though we fell from the spiritual world into the material world (due to our envy of the Lord) because there is no time in the spiritual world there is no time that we fell into this material world. And when we become purified by the process of Krishna consciousness and reawaken our original love for the Supreme Lord there will be no time when we returned. We will always have been there.

Just as time goes backwards when one crosses the international date line from Auckland to Santiago, time also goes backwards when the jiva crosses the Viraja on his return trip back to home, back to Godhead. Time will go back to that moment when he fell from the spiritual sky. In other words, he will never have fallen. This is why it is sometimes said that no one falls from the spiritual world even though countless numbers of jivas have fallen into this material existence due to misuse of their minute independence by desiring to take the position of being the center of existence.

Some may argue that time cannot go backwards. But if the Lord has true supremacy over everything within existence, He must have the power to fast forward, rewind, or freeze time. And he can do it differently for each individual person. It’s not that everybody has to be on the same program. This is why some souls exist in the timeless spiritual realm as nitya-siddhas, eternally liberated souls, and some souls exist in the material realm of past, present, and future as nitya-baddhas, eternally conditioned souls.

unquote.

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

I had these type of questions in my heart unanswered for a long time. But when I started subscribing to Srila Gurudeva’s emails, all these questions were answered convincingly without me even having to ask them.

Hare Krishna,

your servant,

Bhaktarupa das

Rahul Mangla, 14th September 2011

Hare Krishna,

What a wonderful explaination by Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari Maharaj. I suppose this should clear all doubts.

Hari Bol,

Rahul

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Why does the soul fall?

Cigdem, Jan 19 2012

All Glories to Sri Guru!

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Hare Krishna!

Dear Devotees!

According to the mail of Mahabhagavat Das from today, I have a question:

The spirit soul is sat-cit-ananda, eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. Why and how does it fall into the trap of the material platform?

Thank you

Your servant

Cigdem Ongen

 

Nashvin, Jan 25 2012

Hare Krsna!

Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

His Grace Sriman Sankarshan das Adhikari has answered this question as follows:

“We became envious of Krishna, infected with the desire that we should become God.”

(http://www.sda-archives.com/tftd/2005/oct/tftd_102205.html)

Also, here is an article I read on the website of His Holiness Jayadvaita Swami:

Where Do the Fallen Souls Fall From?

Your servant,

Nashvin

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, Jan 26 2012

Hare Krishna!

Nice answer from Bhakta Nashvin.

A couple more answers to this question, which Srila Gurudeva gives are as follows:

“Because the minute living being is qualitatively one with the Lord, who is unlimitedly independent, the minute living being naturally possesses a minute degree of independence. If he misuses this independence, he comes to this material world to try to enjoy separately from the Lord, and thus suffers miserably in the cycle of repeated birth and death. After doing so, if he is indeed fortunate, he comes into contact with the bona fide spiritual master, who enlightens him about his original position in the spiritual world and how to regain it. Then with the merciful blessings of the spiritual master, he returns to his original position in the spiritual world never to make the same mistake again. The living being may misuse his minute independence once, but after having learned his lesson, he will not misuse his independence ever again.”

http://archive.aweber.com/usr_course/SH7B/h/Saturday_5_February_2011_The.htm

And here is another answer:

“It is a fact that one is always free to opt out of the kingdom of God because the devotees there are not slaves. They have full freedom. They may make the mistake once out of curiosity of wondering what it is like on the other side of existence, but it is extremely unlikely that they would make the same mistake twice.

The living being came under the influence of Maya by the misuse of his minute independence. If the potential for misuse were not there, we cannot say that the living being has any independence. And if the jiva has no independence, there is no meaning to his existence. Love can only be expressed by a living being, who possesses independence. Without independence he is nothing more than a robot. It is not possible to have loving relationship with a robot.

This is why Krishna has given us independence. We can choose to love Him or to leave Him. He leaves it up to us to decide which we want. To understand how or when we fell into this material existence is a very difficult subject matter. The easiest program is to fully qualify yourself to regain your original position.

One major difficulty with this philosophy that we were not originally in the spiritual world is that time does not exist in the spiritual world. This means that once you attain it there will be no time that you were ever not there. In the other words, it will be impossible for you to have ever not been there. What this means is that actually we are always there. It’s just that right now we do not realize this. We are currently suffering from amnesia.

Once you regain it, you will then understand everything perfectly. If you are shot with an arrow, what is your first business? To understand where the arrow came from? No. Your first business is to get the arrow out of your chest. Then you can investigate where it came from in full detail. Right now you are pierced by the arrow of conditioned consciousness. Become free from this by total surrender at Lord Krishna’s lotus feet, and then you will understand everything perfectly. In short, go there and you will then fully understand.”

http://www.sda-archives.com/tftd/2007/mar/tftd_030207.htm

Your servant,

Mahabhagavat Das

Hospital in Goloka Vrndavana

Yogesh Purohit, Sep 13 2011

Hare Krishna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

When a person gets sick in material world due to material contamination, he is sent to a hospital to get back to his (physical) health.  Similarly, is there any provision to send a person to Spiritual hospital, whenever a person misuses his free-will in spiritual world, before he is sent back to material world, to enjoy independent of God?  Or, is that Hospital this material world itself?

Please correct my understanding.

Thank you very much.

Your aspiring servant,

Yogesh

Jagannatha dasa, Sep 13 2011

Hare Krishna Yogesh,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva!

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

In a Town Hall Lecture, from 1972, in Auckland, New Zealand, Srila Prabhupada said:

There are hundreds and thousands of hospital, but where is the hospital for treating the spirit soul? They have no knowledge. They have no knowledge even, what to speak of hospital. This is the hospital. This Krishna consciousness temple is the hospital for the diseased spirit soul. And everyone is diseased. Come to this hospital. We shall take care of you and cure your material disease.

Your servant,

-Jagannatha dasa

Yogesh Purohit          , Sep 14 2011

Hare Krishna Jagannatha Prabhuji,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your response.

However, my question was little different.  I was asking isn’t there any hospital in Spiritual world (like we have in Material world), where the diseased spiritual being could be sent before it is sent down to material world to enjoy (miserably)?  I have read that every living being originally was in Goloka Vrndavana, but due to misuse of free will, we are sent back in Material world to enjoy independently of God.  My question is that, when that desire originated in Goloka Vrndavana, wasn’t there a provision to sent that soul in the Spiritual Hospital in Goloka Vrndavana itself and get cured there, instead of sending the soul to material world and awarding the material body and associated miseries?

Thank you very much.

Your aspiring servant,

Yogesh

Ashutosh Pandey, Sep 14 2011

Hare Krsna

All glories to Srila Prabhupada:

Actually this material world is the hospital of the spiritual world…Outside this hospital no one is sick (that is in spiritual zone).only those who are become diseased in the spiritual world are sent to this hospital….one more thing if you are assuming a spiritual hospital then you are on the wrong pathway as in spiritual axis no one is disease because the fundamental axiom of spiritual axis is that there is No BIRTH, DISEASE, OLD AGE and DEATH…..so no hospital only bliss and simply happy eternally.

Hope this helps you

YS

Ashutosh

Yogesh Purohit          , Sep 14 2011

Hare Krishna Ashutosh Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

So we are trying to enjoy in the hospital 🙂

Thank you for your kind reply.  This definitely helps.

Your servant

Yogesh

Ashutosh Pandey, Sep 14 2011

Hare Krsna

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Ha ha ha……Yes now you got the point….. See how foolish it is to even think to enjoy in a hospital where one is diseased and staying with diseased…… but what to say about thinking we all have taken it as a fact…and hence suffer miserably…

YS

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, Sep 14 2011

Hare Krishna Prabhus,

The spiritual world is known as “Vaikuntha”, this is a combination of the words vai + kuntha.

“Vai” means without

“Kuntha” means miseries

Here is a reference by Srila Prabhupada in a lecture…

“So this whole material creation is like that. The creator of this universe, Krsna, He says, duhkhalayam asasvatam: [Bg. 8.15] “This is the place for suffering.” And you are seeking after happiness. Just like in the prison house: it is the place for suffering, and if you want to be comfortable, this is called maya. Maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan [SB 7.9.43]. The whole world is running after happiness what is not possible. Therefore they have been described as vimudhan, rascal. We sometimes use this word very frequently, “rascals,” and they become angry. But actually that is the description, “rascals.” All these so-called civilized men, so-called civilized men, they are not men even. They’re all animals. But in the sastra, they have been described as dvi-pada-pasu. They are animals, but they have got two legs. That’s all. That is the difference. Animals, generally, they have four legs, catus-pada, but these animals are two-legged. That is the difference. They’re animals because… The same example: In the desert there is no water, and the animal is running after it. Why he’s called animal? Because he does not understand that “In the desert, how there can be water?””

And he describes how the material world is just 1/4th of the total creation – just as hospitals occupy only a small part of our cities:

“So there is another world. That information is given here. Mayatite vyapi. Vyapi means very extensive. This whole material world is one-fourth of Krsna’s expansion, one-fourth. And that Vaikunthaloka is three-fourths. So therefore it is called vyapi. Vyapi means very extensive. We cannot calculate even this material existence. It is only one-fourth. Now, how it will be possible for us to calculate the vyapi vaikuntha-loka? Vyapi-vaikuntha-loka. Vaikuntha means… Vi means without, and kuntha means anxiety. So Vaikunthaloka means there is no anxiety. There is no anxiety. Here we are full of anxieties in this material… Even big, big businessman, who has got enough money, you’ll find he is in anxiety. He’s always thinking, “How this business will go on? How this, maintain so many men?” So I have seen it that our printer, Dai Nippon, the president, when we, for the temporary, we stopped our business, he was full of anxiety. Yes. Now they have agreed to reduce ten percent more than any printer. Why? He was full of anxiety. (Laughter) This is the fact. So don’t think that very big, big businessman or one who has got enough money, he has no anxiety. Anxiety there should be. This is the place of anxiety, kuntha. Prahlada Maharaja pointed it out that tat sadhu manye ‘sura-varya dehinam sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat [SB 7.5.5]. Here, in this material world, whoever is there… The Brahma is also anxiety, in full of anxiety. Indra… You know. Prthu Maharaja was sacrificing hundred times, and Indra became very much anxious that “If Prthu becomes so great, then he may occupy my seat.” So he wanted to put hindrances so that he may not fulfil the so many yajnas.”

And most importantly, Srila Prabhupada has also given the cure:

“So our Krsna consciousness movement is for that purpose. Increase Krsna consciousness and there will be no more kuntha, no more anxiety. People are trying to be anxiety-less, and that is only possible by this movement. Put always in touch with Krsna. And the method is very simple – Hare Krsna. That’s all. If you keep yourself in touch with Hare Krsna… We have already been known as Hare Krishna people all over the world, Hare Krishna people. So increase this population, Hare Krishna people, and it will be Vaikuntha.”

This is also the purpose of this group.

Your servant,

Mahabhagavat Das

On Science and Mercy

Bhakti yogis dance in Hare Krishna Kirtan - experiencing the mercy, not possible by intellect alone
Bhakti yogis dance in Hare Krishna Kirtan – experiencing the mercy, not possible by intellect alone – taken at ISKCON Toronto, July 01, 2012

Jagannatha dasa, 02nd August 2011

Hare Krishna prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I sent the following question to Srila Gurudeva.  Both the question I sent, and his answer are copied below.  I hope that this inspires you as it does me.

Dear Srila Gurudeva,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

hank you for blessing me with transcendental knowledge and with your example of pure love of God.

It is clear that Krishna consciousness is a science, but is Krishna’s mercy a part of the science, or is it beyond the science?

Please enlighten me with real understanding.

Your servant,

-Jagannatha dasa

My Dear Jagannatha,

Please accept my blessings.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Science is jnana or perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth.  Krishna is that Absolute Truth and His loving mercy is even sweeter than knoweldge of Him. The Brijabasis do not know who is Krishna is.  They think that maybe He is a demigod.

But they love Krishna and have unlimited varieties of loving exchanges with Him.  This position of loving relationship with Krishna is higher than scientific knowledge of Him.

I hope this meets you in the best of health and in an ecstatic mood.

Your ever well-wisher,

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

Your servant,

-Jagannatha dasa

Premal, 2nd August 2011

Hare Krishna Prabhu

All glories to Swami Prabhupada

Please accept my humble obeisances

Would the brajvasis not know who is Krishna in spiritual world or only it is in material world due to Yogamaya?

Ys servant

Premal

Rama Sita, 02nd August 2011

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada,

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga

Hare Krsna.

Thanks for that response. That is one reason why I subscribe to Sri Sankarshan Adhikari’s list.

regards

rAma

Sri Sri Radha Kshira Chora Gopinatha - the origin of science and givers of mercy - ISKCON Toronto
Sri Sri Radha Kshira Chora Gopinatha – The Origin of science and Givers of mercy – ISKCON Toronto

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 24th April 2012

Hare Krishna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I see that your question from 01 Aug 2011 remained unanswered.

Krishna never appears in the material world 🙂 Wherever He goes, is converted to spiritual world, where there is Krishna, that place is completely spiritualized, that is why when we chant Hare Krishna purely then we are not living in material world. So, even in the material world, the Vrindavan here is called “Gokula Vrindavan”, and the original topmost spiritual planet if “Goloka Vrindavan”. The specialty is that only in Gokula Vrindavan Krishna exhibits His baby and childhood pastimes. In Goloka Vrindavan, this is not present.

You mention “spiritual world” below, note that this consists of an unlimited number of spiritual planets, “Vaikuntha”. In all the planets except Goloka Vrindavan, the devotees know that Vishnu or Narayan or Narasimhadeva, They are Supreme Personality of Godhead, and there is a feeling of awe and reverence in those spiritual planets.

In Goloka Vrindavan, the residents are made to forget Krishna’s Supreme position for the sake of His pastimes, and in fact, even Krishna is not in the consciousness of being the Supreme, He is simply reciprocating with the devotees’ loving moods. The Acharyas describe Krishna as simultaneously both “sarvajna” or all-knowing, and “mugdha” or captivated… Krishna is completely controlled by His pure devotees’ desires always, and that is why Srila Gurudeva says that the relationship with Krishna is beyond science.

I hope this answers the question.

Sincerely,

Mahabhagavat Das

jagannath, baladeva,and subhadra, after Their snana yatra abhishek - ritual bathing - ISKCON Toronto July 01 2012
Sri Sri Jagannath, Baladeva,and Subhadra, after Their snana yatra abhishek – ritual bathing – ISKCON Toronto July 01 2012

Bhakta Jared, 24th April 2012

Hare Krishna!

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

HARI BOL !  Wonderful !  AWESOME ! THANKS SO VERY MUCH,

Your Unprofitable Servant,

Jared

(Oneness=in Purpose)= Bhagavad-gita 18:66

Premal, 24th April 2012

Hare Krishna Prabhuji

All glories to Swami Gurudeva

All glories to Swami Prabhupada

I feel very inspired by your answer.

A question is still in my mind if the pure devotee is always wanting to serve Krishna does he not like living the Goloka Vrindavan topmost planet in spiritual world to come as a acharaya in the material world or does he like to come to get back the fallen souls for Krishna pleasure?

Ys servant

Premal

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 24th April 2012

Dear Premal Prabhu,

Hare Krishna!

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Yes, you are right, a pure devotee is never fallen, even if to untrained materially contaminated eyes, it may appear to be so. For example, the pure devotees who appeared in the western countries, they are sent there to make it easier for those in western material consciousness to accept the way they speak and express themselves. They are not in any way inferior to a pure devotee born in India, though actually pure devotee sees himself as very lowly always, even if he receives respect from others.

For example, it appears that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura was born in an atheistic family and did not pursue devotional service until his thirties, but He is our Acharya, this means that He is, was, and will always be pure. A pure devotee acting as spiritual master is “Krishna Preshthaya”, that means sent by Krishna.

A pure devotee is not just thinking in the mind, a pure devotees every thought, word, and deed are devotional service, they do not do anything for their own satisfaction, everything only for Krishna’s satisfaction – and how to know if Krishna is satisfied – easy, if our spiritual master is satisfied then we should take that as Krishna being satisfied. If our spiritual master is dissatisfied, then we should understand as Krishna being dissatisfied. So our words and actions are very important.

We should be careful not to see anyone else but ourselves as “fallen” – especially never ever cast any shred of doubt on those who are ahead of us in devotional service in any way, birth, position, knowledge, service, or sincerity. Those who see others, especially other devotees as fallen have every risk of falling down themselves, because that consciousness affects us also.

Krishna confirms this Himself in Bhagavad Gita about persons engaged in devotional service – note Krishna is not saying “thinking” he specifically mentions service to Krishna “bhajate maam”:

api cet su-durācāro

bhajate mām ananya-bhāk

sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ

samyag vyavasito hi saḥ

“Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.” BG 9.30

In purport, Srila Prabhupada has explained:

“The word su-durācāraḥ used in this verse is very significant, and we should understand it properly. When a living entity is conditioned, he has two kinds of activities: one is conditional, and the other is constitutional. As for protecting the body or abiding by the rules of society and state, certainly there are different activities, even for the devotees, in connection with the conditional life, and such activities are called conditional. Besides these, the living entity who is fully conscious of his spiritual nature and is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or the devotional service of the Lord, has activities which are called transcendental. Such activities are performed in his constitutional position, and they are technically called devotional service. Now, in the conditioned state, sometimes devotional service and the conditional service in relation to the body will parallel one another. But then again, sometimes these activities become opposed to one another. As far as possible, a devotee is very cautious so that he does not do anything that could disrupt his wholesome condition. He knows that perfection in his activities depends on his progressive realization of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sometimes, however, it may be seen that a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness commits some act which may be taken as most abominable socially or politically. But such a temporary falldown does not disqualify him. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that if a person falls down but is wholeheartedly engaged in the transcendental service of the Supreme Lord, the Lord, being situated within his heart, purifies him and excuses him from that abomination. The material contamination is so strong that even a yogī fully engaged in the service of the Lord sometimes becomes ensnared; but Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so strong that such an occasional falldown is at once rectified. Therefore the process of devotional service is always a success. No one should deride a devotee for some accidental falldown from the ideal path, for, as explained in the next verse, such occasional falldowns will be stopped in due course, as soon as a devotee is completely situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.”

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Mahabhagavat Das

No one is excluded from experiencing the mercy - proof of the pudding is in the eating!
No one is excluded from experiencing the mercy – proof of the pudding is in the eating!