Nikhil Mishra, 16 October 2017
Hare Krsna devotees
Please accept my humble obeisances
Though this is true that my heart feel peace when i sing glories and pastimes of Lord yet there arise confusions in my mind when we read in shastras that Suryadev and Chandradev were demigods while science says them to be just planets and similar other such confusions.
Only thing that is left in such confusions is to beg from Lord to keep my mind hooked into His names and reveal His merciful presence in my heart.
May be at some later stage, i would be able to understand all this better.
Bhakta Sunil, 16 October 2017
Please accept my humble respects
All glories to Srila Gurudeva
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Vedic science comes long before the mundane science and is constant whereas theories of mundane science keeps changing because mundane science is based on our Limited senses
The following thought for the day based on the vedic version helps us to understand this :-
Life Did Not Explode Out of Nothing — 17 July 2011
Uploaded from Bhaktivedanta Ashram, Austin, Texas USA
There is no doubt that we’ve been given the most challenging assignment imaginable. Our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, has ordered us to deliver everyone from illusion by teaching them what is their origin and how to perfect their relationship with that origin. At the present moment the popular theory is that life has evolved from a random combination of chemicals, which originally exploded out of nothing. It’s no wonder that people are so bewildered and frustrated when such an empty, meaningless and dogmatic cosmology is being crammed down their throats. Therefore out of compassion upon these poor suffering fellows we must constantly tax our brains to how to drive away this cosmological cloud of illusion with the brilliant sun of transcendental knowledge so that everyone will understand who they are and how to be who they are and thus become unlimitedly happy.
Sankarshan Das Adhikari
Nikhil Mishra, 19 October 2017
Thank you so much sunil prabhu for your answer. I beg mercy of exalted vaishnavas so that i can calm down my argumentative mind in light of realisation (which does occur in glimpses but then fades away).
Manoj Tripathi, 19 October 2017
Hare Krsna Prabhujis and Matajis,
There are several articles, books, lectures and videos by HG Sadaputa Prabhu (Dr. Richard L. Thompson) and other devotees which are very good at removing the conditioning caused by the modern so-called-scientific dogma.
Some things that I remember from his books:
One of the greatest problem with the modern world-view is that a model for understanding the things around us is taken to be the reality. This model assumes that
- The laws valid around us are applicable at all points in space and time (that is how they talk about things happening in distant stars and black holes etc.)
- These laws are simple mathematical statements, and all phenomena is reducible (that is why modern scientists tend to assume that consciousness is “made up of” constituent material elements, although the vedic version is that the soul which causes consciousness is irreducible)
- That which exists is observable (observable by their choice of methods. If we say, chant Hare Krsna and you will see Krsna face to face, they won’t accept this method of observation).
As Srila Prabhupada said, this modern science is atheism in the garb of science.
May we develop more and more faith in Srila Prabhupada’s words and his pure representatives’ words.
Please forgive me and correct me if anything is incorrect/not in parampara.
Nikhil Mishra, 21 October 2017
Thanks manoj prabhu for carry forwarding the discussion.
Somehow besides having faith in shastras , some stuff keep appearing in mind. for example, now when i see sun, i dont say that suryadev has arrived on his chariot but mind thinks , so here comes another rotation of earth on its axis and a new day starts.
i also understand that mind enjoys such intellectual thoughts but avoid real work. when it comes to wake up early and chant hari-naam, it does not obey. if i have a flight at 5 am, i wake up but for hari naam, no!!
i beg mercy of all vaisnavas and creator of this world to kindly remove tamo and rajo guna from my inside.and let Krsna in my heart propel me towards His will.
Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 27 October 2017
Dear Nikhil, Sunil, and Manoj,
Please kindly accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Gurudeva.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Sriman Nikhil, thank you for breaking a long drought. The last question asked in this forum was who knows when! 🙂
Also, thank you both Sriman Sunil and Sriman Manoj for encouraging a healthy understanding of this subject matter! This is what this group is for – Srila Prabhupada said “discuss it threadbare” and Srila Gurudeva encourages us to have these discussions, and that is why this group exists.
This is what I have gathered…
Positioning science “vs” shastras is not beneficial to anyone. I learned this from Chaitanya Charan Prabhu in detail. They are complementary – Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada maintain that the genuine scientist will end up at the lotus feet of Krishna eventually, even if it takes longer than necessary.
But as Vaisesika Prabhu taught me “you can take a horse to the water – you cannot make him drink, you can lead a man to wisdom – you can’t make him think”.
For example, science can tell you that when the trigger of a gun is pulled when the gun is loaded with
ammunition, a projectile bullet will accelerate and proceed at a certain velocity in a certain trajectory. It can also tell you what will happen when that bullet hits the body of a human being in terms of physics and biology. However, science cannot say “should that trigger be pulled?”, and “what will be the future consequence of that trigger pull?” and “why was that trigger pulled”.
Shastra is meant to give us understanding of that which is essentially beyond our understanding materially speaking. For example, take the modes of material nature, 3 in number. When those 3 combine, they make 9 combinations. When the 9 combinations of those combine, they make 81 variants. When the 81 variants combine, they make 6561 variables, and when they combine, they make 43,046,721 combinations. This combination continues infinitely, and each of us is governed by the specifics of the modes of material natures we have acquired over billions of lives. For the sake of discussion, let’s stop here for now – now, when two individuals each governed by 43 million variables interact with each other, their interactions are governed now by 1,800 trillion variables, plus the results of each person’s past karmic reactions and karmic debts to others and each other. When we get to that level of complexity, no material science can help you to understand what is exactly going on. Surely, we can speculate, but we cannot find a solution to this ever-endingly increasing complexity, seen as “chaos” or “randomness” by those who can’t see the nuances.
But, the intelligent person will ask, OK, how can I dissolve the modes of material nature acting upon me? Devotional service is the only way. The shastra or scripture does not waste time in useless frivolous pursuits like trying to categorize the millions billions trillions of combinations of the modes of material nature, but tells us how to get rid of them altogether, and we can experience our lives getting simpler and simpler when we practice devotional service. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
apraarabdha phalam paapam
kutam bijam phalonmukham
vishnu bhakti rataatmanaam
From Padma Purana – the complexities of karmic actions and reactions, lying in the form of hidden seeds, sprouting plants, and those flowering and bearing fruit, can all be systematically countered by executing vishnu bhakti
Think about a banyan tree which gives thousands of fruits with hundreds of seeds inside each fruit. Material science can never answer the question “how many trees are inside this seed”, but spiritual science can just fry that seed and ensure zero trees inside the seed.
Now for example, your question about the planets… take this passage from Srila Prabhupada’s introduction To the Bhagavad Gita As It I:
“For instance, the Lord has control over the universal affairs of material nature, as will be explained in the later chapters of Bhagavad-gītā. Material nature is not independent. She is acting under the directions of the Supreme Lord. As Lord Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: “This material nature is working under My direction.” When we see wonderful things happening in the cosmic nature, we should know that behind this cosmic manifestation there is a controller. Nothing could be manifested without being controlled. It is childish not to consider the controller. For instance, a child may think that an automobile is quite wonderful to be able to run without a horse or other animal pulling it, but a sane man knows the nature of the automobile’s engineering arrangement. He always knows that behind the machinery there is a man, a driver. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the driver under whose direction everything is working.”
Is there a single instance of any machine we have created that works on its own without direction? Even the most advanced machine learning systems need someone to set up the test set, the training set, the specific implementation of some algorithms, and a feedback network… does any computer suddenly manifest out of thin air without someone trying to make it come about? Does a cell phone just manifest without effort by someone? So if such insignificant things require so many tens of thousands of people to conceive, design, plan, produce, ship, stock, sell, buy, and operate… is it not naive to assume that the planets are working so beautifully in tandem and in perfect harmony all by themselves with no controller?
Just because I may not see a controller, is that sufficient evidence to conclude that there is no controller? Isn’t that an absurd conclusion? Sure, a material scientist can say “I don’t know that there is a controller”, but the same scientist would be a blind follower if he said “I know that there is no controller”. Similarly, many scientists who are honest say “I don’t know if there is a God”, we can accept that they are admitting their ignorance, but if they say “I know there isn’t a God”, we would call them a fool and proceed to ignore them, they deserve to be ignored.
So Suryadev, or Vivaswan, and Chandradev, both “are”, not “were”. If you qualify yourself, you can see them face to face, in fact, if you qualify yourself, you can occupy their post too. But why waste your time in the material realm when Krishna is waiting for you to return to Him in the spiritual realm where there is no necessity of sun. moon, stars, where everything and everyone is self-effulgent?
I hope this helps. Setup 1,2, 3 or more alarm clocks in 2-3 minute increments, leave them far from your bed, and then rise early and chant with loving determination
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
every morning, minimum 16 rounds on your garland of 108 beads daily.
And anyone or anything that opposes this program, you can overcome it with every single bit of power you can muster. This is war, for your own sake. Your prayers are already answered – Krishna has sent you Guru, and Krishna has put you in a community where you will be well supported to fulfill your spiritual desires. Krishna has given you all facility.
Dear jiva going by the name of Nikhil, “you” are at stake here. You stand to be liberated from all material bondage if you follow this process. And if you don’t make the right choices, you stand to remain trapped in another birth, another old age, another set of diseases, and yet another death, one after another ad infinitum. And not to mention slavery to the mad mind.
But, little jiva, the choice is yours to make, the consequences of your choices are yours to deal with also.
Now, what will you choose to do?
Nikhil Mishra, 29 October 2017
Thanks Mahabhagvat prabhu for such an illustrative answer.
The whole discussion comes to this: “follow the process and verify the claims yourself made by shastras(Scriptures).”
Though i am still skeptical seeing God face to face ( though i was always fancied from stories of Bhakta Dhruva and Prahlad having darshan of God face to face), still i do realise presence of Him in terms of peaceful state of mind when i read holy-books and chant holy-names or participate in kirtan. May be i taste occasionally Shant-rasa.
Through your advice and process , i would work to change the neuroplasticity of my stubborn mind to get up early in morning and take shelter of hari-naam. Lets see what happens next !
Thank you so much again for the trouble you took to write such a long answer.
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