Pride is celebrated these days. Be proud of this or that, we are told. But what is the price of pride? And why is humility better? How to be humble? What is the big deal about humility? Why not celebrate humility for a change?
Recently there have been a number of festivals focusing around pride. Different kinds of pride, but all material in nature. For example someone is proud that they are heterosexual in their preference, and yet others are proud that they are homosexual, lesbian, bisexual, trans-sexual or queer.
It is fashionable to celebrate pride these days
Yet others are celebrating their pride of being of a certain colour skin, or others are celebrating their profession or nationality or ethnic origin.
It is another matter that in the kaliyuga, or the age of quarrel and hypocrisy, everything is mixed up… souls are born in the body of a man, but the consciousness of a woman… or the body of a woman but the consciousness of a man. This is due to incomplete karmic accounts, and these mixed-up births are actually a form of punishment, but the spirit souls are trying to turn them into perverse enjoyment.
They parade these material designations, and the various festivals involve getting inebriated, and having some silly sense indulgences which bind them further into their attachments, causing yet another painful material death, and leading to many more such materially designated lives.
All of these are essentially material designations. And we should be ashamed of material designations. OK, this is not just a matter of sentiment, but we should know that these material designations are the cause of all of our sufferings.
I am not this body, I am a spirit soul. You too, dear reader, are a spirit soul.
So why should we adopt all these material designations? Why should we make the mistake of thinking we are these bodies? Why should we identify with some temporary thing that comes and goes? Today you might be a heterosexual, and tomorrow you might become a homosexual! Today you might be Chinese or American or Russian or Indian, but what were you before were born into this body?
Instead however if we realize that we are spirit souls, we then inquire into the activities of the spirit soul, which are spiritual in nature, and which give the spirit soul great joy “ananda” bliss. In fact, we are composed of “sat” (eternality) “chit” (knowledge), and “ananda” (bliss).
In the material condition, we are simply trying to find that bliss but not at all finding it, and hence, the lawyer becomes a politician, the heterosexual becomes lesbian, the lesbian becomes straight, the businessman becomes a philanthropist, the Hindu becomes Muslim, the Muslim adopts Christianity, and yet, as life wanes and death nears, there is a sense of disgust, frustration, and dissatisfaction, which is usually hidden under a veneer of distraction, such as attempts at sense gratification, intoxication and so on.
People identify with different religious symbols, which become another material designation
What is the solution to this problem?
To free ourselves of all designations of course!
Krishna says the following in the Bhagavad Gita…
अद्वेष्टा सर्वभूतानां मैत्र: करुण एव च । निर्ममो निरहङ्कार: समदु:खसुख: क्षमी ॥ १३ ॥ सन्तुष्ट: सततं योगी यतात्मा दृढनिश्चय: । मय्यर्पितमनोबुद्धिर्यो मद्भक्त: स मे प्रिय: ॥ १४ ॥
adveṣṭā sarva-bhūtānāṁ maitraḥ karuṇa eva ca nirmamo nirahaṅkāraḥ sama-duḥkha-sukhaḥ kṣamī
santuṣṭaḥ satataṁ yogī yatātmā dṛḍha-niścayaḥ mayy arpita-mano-buddhir yo mad-bhaktaḥ sa me priyaḥ
One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me – such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me.
All these material designations qualify as “false ego”. “ego” means identity. Then what is “true” ego?
What is our true identity?
True ego means to realize oneself as an eternal part-and-parcel of Krishna.
jīvera ‘svarūpa’ haya — kṛṣṇera ‘nitya-dāsa’ kṛṣṇera ‘taṭasthā-śakti’ ‘bhedābheda-prakāśa’
sūryāṁśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra ‘śakti’ haya
“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.
The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.
Krishna Lifts Govardhan, to protect from the deluge sent by Indra, and the residents of Vrindavan enjoy close proximity with Him
Srila Prabhupada writes in his purport:
Every living entity, as an individual soul, has his personal individuality and a minute form of independence. By misuse of that independence one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under the engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As a result, he has to struggle very hard to maintain his existence in the material world.
There you go. Instead of being proud of the material designations, we should feel humbled that such an exalted spirit soul is now in illusion and anxiety as some idiotic little temporary designation.
And when the soul feels humble, then that is cause for celebration. Why is that? And how to accomplish this freedom from material designations?
Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. One is freed from all material designations, and one’s senses are purified simply by being employed in the service of the Lord.
What is knowledge? What is ignorance? How do we acquire knowledge? Which method actually works? Finding out things the ascending way, or hearing from an authority? How to acquire perfect knowledge beyond all doubt?
Knowledge is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?
Are these people getting anywhere? Are they “progressing”?
With knowledge, comes power. Power to do good, and also power to do evil. Knowledge can be a liberator, but also can be a tool for enforcing bondage.
Also, what qualifies as knowledge anyway? If, for example, a person acquired some knowledge on “how to rob a bank” and applies that knowledge, landing in prison, or even if they escape somehow, was that really knowledge? Or was it ignorance?
There are 2 main types of knowledge:
Knowledge of the material world -material knowledge
Knowledge of what lies beyond this material world through the scriptures – spiritual knowledge – In Sanskrit “परोक्ष” or “parokṣa”
There are many means of acquiring knowledge:
By Direct experience or perception – In sanskrit “प्रत्यक्ष” or “pratyakṣa”
By hypothesis/logic/conjecture/guessing – In sanskrit “अनुमान” or “anumāna”
By hearing from a higher authority – In Sanskrit “शब्द” or “śabda”
Ultimately, there are 2 fundamental processes of acquiring knowledge:
Ascending Process – build up knowledge from building blocks – In Sanskrit “आरोहपन्था” or “ārohapanthā“
Descending Process – Knowledge descending directly from God and His messengers – In Sanskrit “अवरोहपन्था” or “avarohapanthā“
In an article, with an example of an ant who wanted to map the Universe, I discussed the futility of the ascending process of knowledge, especially about items that are outside of our realm of perception.
Much of what we know exists, is actually too subtle to perceive.
These are the material elements, listed in the Bhagavad Gita:
Gross Material Elements:
Earth
Water
Fire
Air
Ether (Space/Sky)
Subtle Material Elements:
Mind
Intelligence
False Ego
BG भूमिरापोऽनलो वायु: खं मनो बुद्धिरेव च । अहङ्कार इतीयं मे भिन्ना प्रकृतिरष्टधा ॥ ४ ॥
bhūmir āpo ’nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego – all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.
Earth is the most gross of the material elements, more subtle is water, even more subtle is air, and ether is quite subtle, you can’t touch or feel space, but we can still perceive it. Now, when we get to the mind, that is even more subtle. Intelligence is still more subtle, and the most subtle material element is false ego, our sense of identity.
However, none of the material elements can directly approach that which is non-material, namely the spiritual is outside of the realm of material elements, even subtle.
If we see our material means of acquiring knowledge, the mind, intelligence, and our sense of identity are all material in nature, and therefore, the ascending process of acquiring knowledge cannot possibly extend to the spiritual realm.
There is another main reason why the ascending process of knowledge is flawed… all of us who are “conditioned” to accept a material identity, have 4 defects:
Tendency to be illusioned (In Sanskrit “भ्रम”or “bhrama”) – we often misunderstand facts and are illusioned about things as they are
Tendency to make mistakes (In Sanskrit “प्रमाद” or “pramāda”) – there is no conditioned souls who can say they never make mistakes
Tendency to cheat others (In Sanskrit “विप्रलिप्सा”or “vipralipsā”) – this is a great weakness, to want to appear better than we are, or know something we don’t, etc.
We possess imperfect senses (In Sanskrit “करण पाटव” or “karaṇa-pāṭava”) – all our senses are quite imperfect, and we miss a lot from our senses
So, with these 4 defects, it is impossible to acquire perfect knowledge using only our senses. Why is that? It is because with an imperfect instrument, you cannot make something that is perfect. No matter how hard we try, our imperfections stand in the way.
The common example is if we’re doing some mathematical calculation or solving an equation… a tiny mistake somewhere along the way can get us a wrong answer.
Let’s say, for example, someone didn’t know who their father was… they can do some detective work, or a DNA test of every man in the world, or they can take the answer from their mother. The mother’s answer is authoritative and a lot easier too.
Reconnecting Material to the Spiritual
The only way to acquire perfect knowledge, then, is through the descending process, “avarohapantha”. In this process, the Supreme Absolute Perfect (generically called God, specifically named Krishna, Allah, Rama, Govinda, Buddha, Jehovah, Yahweh, etc.) conveys the perfect knowledge, and whoever hears this knowledge passes it on without addition or subtraction.
Perfect Knowledge means something that never changes. Compare this to our ascending process of knowledge. Researchers make a career out of making mistakes! First they publish one paper hypothesizing (and sometimes also offering “proof”) one particular thing… the laypeople accept that as the truth, and then a little while later, that or another researcher publishes another paper contradicting the original hypothesis or proof. In this way, the so-called philosophers and scientists bumble about, going from imperfection to imperfection. This is not called knowledge, this is called nescience, or ignorance.
Why is that? Because material knowledge gives the impression of advancement, whereas it actually traps us in bigger and bigger problems, requiring more and ever more complexity. A material “solution” is only another problem in disguise… it is simply creating one problem in place of another. Therefore, material knowledge is not called knowledge, but ignorance. And those who pursue material knowledge excessively are said to be ignorant.
So therefore, spiritual knowledge is worth pursuing, and such knowledge cannot be “discovered/created/invented” by anyone else other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
धर्मं तु साक्षाद्भगवत्प्रणीतं न वै विदुऋर्षयो नापि देवा: । न सिद्धमुख्या असुरा मनुष्या: कुतो नु विद्याधरचारणादय: ॥ १९ ॥
dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītaṁ na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ na siddha-mukhyā asurā manuṣyāḥ kuto nu vidyādhara-cāraṇādayaḥ
Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas.
Lord Brahmā, Bhagavān Nārada, Lord Śiva, the four Kumāras, Lord Kapila [the son of Devahūti], Svāyambhuva Manu, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Janaka Mahārāja, Grandfather Bhīṣma, Bali Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and I myself know the real religious principle. My dear servants, this transcendental religious principle, which is known as bhāgavata-dharma, or surrender unto the Supreme Lord and love for Him, is uncontaminated by the material modes of nature. It is very confidential and difficult for ordinary human beings to understand, but if by chance one fortunately understands it, he is immediately liberated, and thus he returns home, back to Godhead.
Now, at least some of those personalities have established disciplic successions on this planet.
There are 4 main authorized disciplic successions to receive perfect knowledge in discipic successions. A disciplic succession is known as “Sampradaya” or “That which gives completely”.
A mango, intact, passed down
A useful example is that if a ripe mango is high in a tree, then if the mango is handed from person to person from those who are at various heights pass the mango down from hand to hand, vs. trying to throw the mango down to the ground…
A Sampradaya delivers spiritual knowledge perfectly, without addition or subtraction
Brahma Sampradaya and its branches, especially expounded by the great teacher Madhva, Lord Chaitanya, and their followers.
Rudra Sampradaya and its branches, especially expounded by the great teacher Vishnu Swami and his followers.
Sri Sampradaya and its branches, begun by Lakshmi devi, the Goddess of Fortune, consort of Lord Narayana, and especially expounded by the great teacher Sri Ramanuja and his followers.
Kumara Sampradaya and its branches, especially expounded by the great teacher Sri Nimbarka and his followers.
What about the rest?
To the extent the teachings of others are in line with one of these descending lines of discipic succession, they are valid, and anything outside of these is at best a stepping stone to one of these 4 lines of disciplic succession. In the worst case, it is a materialistic business masquerading as a genuine spiritual tradition.
Those who claim to be part of a certain tradition but add or subtract from the fundamental principles or twist the teachings are called “apasampradayas” or “anti disciplic successions”.
His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari
By the mercy of my parents and then my spiritual master His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari who is a disciple of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada The Founder Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, even though personally unworthy, I am connected to one of these lines of disciplic succession, called the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya, and seeking to pass on those pure instructions to whoever may want to follow, without adding or subtracting any principle, only, if need be, adjusting details to suit the individual and times.
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)
And what is a principle and what is a detail? That, Srila Prabhupada said, requires some intelligence. I pray for this intelligence, which in my case, I simply ask my spiritual master with a clear description of context.
Ultimately however, knowledge coming from the scriptures and the spiritual master in disciplic succession must be realized in the heart through a process of personal effort (sadhana) and purification. Then the paroksha jnana or scriptural knowledge through scripture, becomes “aparoksha” or that which is beyond the reach of the material senses. In order to experience such knowledge in action, one’s senses must be spiritually awakened, or re-spiritualized.
Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead
Pure devotional service to Krishna is the Ultimate goal of all knowledge, and anything besides this is a waste of time.
Questions? I remain your servant on your spiritual journey! Hare Krishna!
Is it science vs. scripture? Could ancient scripture be so advanced that modern science cannot yet understand it?
Nikhil Mishra, 16 October 2017
Hare Krsna devotees
Please accept my humble obeisances
Though this is true that my heart feel peace when i sing glories and pastimes of Lord yet there arise confusions in my mind when we read in shastras that Suryadev and Chandradev were demigods while science says them to be just planets and similar other such confusions.
Only thing that is left in such confusions is to beg from Lord to keep my mind hooked into His names and reveal His merciful presence in my heart.
May be at some later stage, i would be able to understand all this better.
Hari Bol nikhil
Bhakta Sunil, 16 October 2017
Hare Krishna
Please accept my humble respects
All glories to Srila Gurudeva
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Vedic science comes long before the mundane science and is constant whereas theories of mundane science keeps changing because mundane science is based on our Limited senses
The following thought for the day based on the vedic version helps us to understand this :- Life Did Not Explode Out of Nothing — 17 July 2011
Uploaded from Bhaktivedanta Ashram, Austin, Texas USA
There is no doubt that we’ve been given the most challenging assignment imaginable. Our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, has ordered us to deliver everyone from illusion by teaching them what is their origin and how to perfect their relationship with that origin. At the present moment the popular theory is that life has evolved from a random combination of chemicals, which originally exploded out of nothing. It’s no wonder that people are so bewildered and frustrated when such an empty, meaningless and dogmatic cosmology is being crammed down their throats. Therefore out of compassion upon these poor suffering fellows we must constantly tax our brains to how to drive away this cosmological cloud of illusion with the brilliant sun of transcendental knowledge so that everyone will understand who they are and how to be who they are and thus become unlimitedly happy.
Thank you so much sunil prabhu for your answer. I beg mercy of exalted vaishnavas so that i can calm down my argumentative mind in light of realisation (which does occur in glimpses but then fades away). thanks again
nikhil
Manoj Tripathi, 19 October 2017
Hare Krsna Prabhujis and Matajis,
There are several articles, books, lectures and videos by HG Sadaputa Prabhu (Dr. Richard L. Thompson) and other devotees which are very good at removing the conditioning caused by the modern so-called-scientific dogma.
Some things that I remember from his books: One of the greatest problem with the modern world-view is that a model for understanding the things around us is taken to be the reality. This model assumes that
The laws valid around us are applicable at all points in space and time (that is how they talk about things happening in distant stars and black holes etc.)
These laws are simple mathematical statements, and all phenomena is reducible (that is why modern scientists tend to assume that consciousness is “made up of” constituent material elements, although the vedic version is that the soul which causes consciousness is irreducible)
That which exists is observable (observable by their choice of methods. If we say, chant Hare Krsna and you will see Krsna face to face, they won’t accept this method of observation). As Srila Prabhupada said, this modern science is atheism in the garb of science.
May we develop more and more faith in Srila Prabhupada’s words and his pure representatives’ words.
Please forgive me and correct me if anything is incorrect/not in parampara.
Nikhil Mishra, 21 October 2017
Thanks manoj prabhu for carry forwarding the discussion.
Somehow besides having faith in shastras , some stuff keep appearing in mind. for example, now when i see sun, i dont say that suryadev has arrived on his chariot but mind thinks , so here comes another rotation of earth on its axis and a new day starts.
i also understand that mind enjoys such intellectual thoughts but avoid real work. when it comes to wake up early and chant hari-naam, it does not obey. if i have a flight at 5 am, i wake up but for hari naam, no!!
i beg mercy of all vaisnavas and creator of this world to kindly remove tamo and rajo guna from my inside.and let Krsna in my heart propel me towards His will.
sincerely nikhil
Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 27 October 2017
Dear Nikhil, Sunil, and Manoj,
Hare Krishna!
Please kindly accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Gurudeva. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Sriman Nikhil, thank you for breaking a long drought. The last question asked in this forum was who knows when! 🙂
Also, thank you both Sriman Sunil and Sriman Manoj for encouraging a healthy understanding of this subject matter! This is what this group is for – Srila Prabhupada said “discuss it threadbare” and Srila Gurudeva encourages us to have these discussions, and that is why this group exists.
This is what I have gathered…
Positioning science “vs” shastras is not beneficial to anyone. I learned this from Chaitanya Charan Prabhu in detail. They are complementary – Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada maintain that the genuine scientist will end up at the lotus feet of Krishna eventually, even if it takes longer than necessary.
But as Vaisesika Prabhu taught me “you can take a horse to the water – you cannot make him drink, you can lead a man to wisdom – you can’t make him think”.
For example, science can tell you that when the trigger of a gun is pulled when the gun is loaded with ammunition, a projectile bullet will accelerate and proceed at a certain velocity in a certain trajectory. It can also tell you what will happen when that bullet hits the body of a human being in terms of physics and biology. However, science cannot say “should that trigger be pulled?”, and “what will be the future consequence of that trigger pull?” and “why was that trigger pulled”.
Shastra is meant to give us understanding of that which is essentially beyond our understanding materially speaking. For example, take the modes of material nature, 3 in number. When those 3 combine, they make 9 combinations. When the 9 combinations of those combine, they make 81 variants. When the 81 variants combine, they make 6561 variables, and when they combine, they make 43,046,721 combinations. This combination continues infinitely, and each of us is governed by the specifics of the modes of material natures we have acquired over billions of lives. For the sake of discussion, let’s stop here for now – now, when two individuals each governed by 43 million variables interact with each other, their interactions are governed now by 1,800 trillion variables, plus the results of each person’s past karmic reactions and karmic debts to others and each other. When we get to that level of complexity, no material science can help you to understand what is exactly going on. Surely, we can speculate, but we cannot find a solution to this ever-endingly increasing complexity, seen as “chaos” or “randomness” by those who can’t see the nuances.
But, the intelligent person will ask, OK, how can I dissolve the modes of material nature acting upon me? Devotional service is the only way. The shastra or scripture does not waste time in useless frivolous pursuits like trying to categorize the millions billions trillions of combinations of the modes of material nature, but tells us how to get rid of them altogether, and we can experience our lives getting simpler and simpler when we practice devotional service. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
From Padma Purana – the complexities of karmic actions and reactions, lying in the form of hidden seeds, sprouting plants, and those flowering and bearing fruit, can all be systematically countered by executing vishnu bhakti
Think about a banyan tree which gives thousands of fruits with hundreds of seeds inside each fruit. Material science can never answer the question “how many trees are inside this seed”, but spiritual science can just fry that seed and ensure zero trees inside the seed.
Now for example, your question about the planets… take this passage from Srila Prabhupada’s introduction To the Bhagavad Gita As It I:
“For instance, the Lord has control over the universal affairs of material nature, as will be explained in the later chapters of Bhagavad-gītā. Material nature is not independent. She is acting under the directions of the Supreme Lord. As Lord Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: “This material nature is working under My direction.” When we see wonderful things happening in the cosmic nature, we should know that behind this cosmic manifestation there is a controller. Nothing could be manifested without being controlled. It is childish not to consider the controller. For instance, a child may think that an automobile is quite wonderful to be able to run without a horse or other animal pulling it, but a sane man knows the nature of the automobile’s engineering arrangement. He always knows that behind the machinery there is a man, a driver. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the driver under whose direction everything is working.”
Is there a single instance of any machine we have created that works on its own without direction? Even the most advanced machine learning systems need someone to set up the test set, the training set, the specific implementation of some algorithms, and a feedback network… does any computer suddenly manifest out of thin air without someone trying to make it come about? Does a cell phone just manifest without effort by someone? So if such insignificant things require so many tens of thousands of people to conceive, design, plan, produce, ship, stock, sell, buy, and operate… is it not naive to assume that the planets are working so beautifully in tandem and in perfect harmony all by themselves with no controller?
Just because I may not see a controller, is that sufficient evidence to conclude that there is no controller? Isn’t that an absurd conclusion? Sure, a material scientist can say “I don’t know that there is a controller”, but the same scientist would be a blind follower if he said “I know that there is no controller”. Similarly, many scientists who are honest say “I don’t know if there is a God”, we can accept that they are admitting their ignorance, but if they say “I know there isn’t a God”, we would call them a fool and proceed to ignore them, they deserve to be ignored.
So Suryadev, or Vivaswan, and Chandradev, both “are”, not “were”. If you qualify yourself, you can see them face to face, in fact, if you qualify yourself, you can occupy their post too. But why waste your time in the material realm when Krishna is waiting for you to return to Him in the spiritual realm where there is no necessity of sun. moon, stars, where everything and everyone is self-effulgent?
I hope this helps. Setup 1,2, 3 or more alarm clocks in 2-3 minute increments, leave them far from your bed, and then rise early and chant with loving determination
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
every morning, minimum 16 rounds on your garland of 108 beads daily.
And anyone or anything that opposes this program, you can overcome it with every single bit of power you can muster. This is war, for your own sake. Your prayers are already answered – Krishna has sent you Guru, and Krishna has put you in a community where you will be well supported to fulfill your spiritual desires. Krishna has given you all facility.
Dear jiva going by the name of Nikhil, “you” are at stake here. You stand to be liberated from all material bondage if you follow this process. And if you don’t make the right choices, you stand to remain trapped in another birth, another old age, another set of diseases, and yet another death, one after another ad infinitum. And not to mention slavery to the mad mind.
But, little jiva, the choice is yours to make, the consequences of your choices are yours to deal with also.
Now, what will you choose to do?
Sincerely, Mahabhagavat Das
Nikhil Mishra, 29 October 2017
Thanks Mahabhagvat prabhu for such an illustrative answer.
The whole discussion comes to this: “follow the process and verify the claims yourself made by shastras(Scriptures).”
Though i am still skeptical seeing God face to face ( though i was always fancied from stories of Bhakta Dhruva and Prahlad having darshan of God face to face), still i do realise presence of Him in terms of peaceful state of mind when i read holy-books and chant holy-names or participate in kirtan. May be i taste occasionally Shant-rasa.
Through your advice and process , i would work to change the neuroplasticity of my stubborn mind to get up early in morning and take shelter of hari-naam. Lets see what happens next !
Thank you so much again for the trouble you took to write such a long answer.
Hari-bol. sincerely Nikhil
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Knowledge coming from Krishna in disciplic succession is free of all defects. In Picture – Sri Sri Radha Kshira Chora Gopinatha – the origin of science and givers of mercy – ISKCON Toronto
Geetha, 10th April 2013
Hare Krishna,
Please accept my humble obeisances,
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada
I want to know the meaning of Apauruseya? This word is in Bhagavad Gita Chapter 4, Verse 1 , in purport they explained that this knowledge is apauruseya.
So please kindly explain me so that I can understand it well. Anything wrong in my question please excuse me.
Thanking you,
your Servant
Geetha
Rathin Mandal, 10th April 2013
Hare Krishna,
Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Srila Gurudev and Srimati Gurumataji,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Mataji you are really reading Bhagavat Gita word to word. This is very inspiring. I do not know the exact meaning of this word but this is how I understood it.
Bhagavat Gita is a transcendental scripture. This is not created by any mundane person. Because a ordinary person is under the illusion of Maya, making some or other mistakes and controlled by imperfect senses. Such a person is always suffering under the three folds of miseries. So to write a scriptures like Bhagavat Gita or Srimad Bhagavatam is not possible for such a person.
All these scripture were written by Srila Vyasadev for the people of age of kali. Srila Vyasadev is also incarnation of Sri Krishna. Hence the scriptures written by Srila Vyasadev has same importance as Sri Krishna. And are non different from Sri Krishna. As Bhagavat Gita is essence of all vedic knowledge, it is the most important scripture for us.
This is my understanding and request to be corrected if I have understood it differently.
your Servant
Rathin
Jagannatha dasa, 10th April 2013
Hare Krishna prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Gurudeva!
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Thank you for your question. Apauruseya means that the Vedic literature was not composed by any material person. Purusa means person. pauruseya means by a person and apauruseya means not by a person.
Materially conditioned souls suffer from four defects, viz. Imperfect senses, the tedency to make mistakes, the tendency to be illusioned and the cheating propensity. Vedas are completly free from these faults because they are spoken by Krishna and His pure devotees, who are eternally liberated. Therefore, they are meant for becoming fully Krishna conscious:
sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham
I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.
Another point to remember is that becasue they were not composed by any particular individual in this material world, they are also beyond time. The Vedic literatures are eternal. Just like Krishna said that He spoke this Bhagavad-gita to the sun god Vivasvan millions of years ago, so all the Vedic knowledge is eternally existing. A rsi is a purified sage who can hear the sound of the Vedic hymns, which are always in the ether, ready to be recieved by one with proper consiousness. But the Lord is merciful even to those of us who can’t directly hear that transcendental sound by sending His representative, the bona fide spiritual master. Therefore, because this Krishna consciousness movement is based on the authority of guru sadhu and sastra, not any ordinary person, our authority is apauruseya.
your servant,
Jagannatha dasa
Renuka, 10th April 2013
Hare Krishna mataji,
All glories to Srila Gurudev and Srimati Gurumataji
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please accept my humble obeisances.
‘Apauruseya’ means The words spoken by the Lord ,meaning that they are different from words spoken by a person of the mundane world who is infected with four defects
1 A mundaner is sure to commit mistakes
2 A mundaner is invariably illusioned
3 A mundaner has tendency to cheat others
4 A mundaner is limited by imperfect senses
With this four defects one cannot deliver perfect information of all pervading knowledge
In short Vedic knowledge is not a question of research.our research work is imperfect because we are researching things with imperfect senses.
We have to accept perfect knowledge which comes down as stated in Bhagavad gita by Parampara. We have to receive knowledge from proper source in discipline succession .
We must accept Bhagavad gita as it without interpretation ,without deletion and without our own whimsical participation in the matter
This is very well explained in detail in the introduction of Bhagavad gita
Thank you for your wonderful questions mataji
your servant,
Rohini Devi dasi
Harish, 10th April 2013
Hare Krsna !
Your understanding is correct Rathin prabhu.
It is mentioned in the introduction of Bhagvad Gita as well as in the purport of Sri Isopanishad as below :
Vedic knowledge is infallible because it comes down through the perfect disciplic succession of spiritual masters, beginning with the Lord Himself. Since He spoke the first word of Vedic knowledge, the source of this knowledge is transcendental. The words spoken by the Lord are called apauruseya, which indicates that they are not delivered by any mundane person.
A living being who lives in the mundane world has four defects: *(1) he is certain to commit mistakes; (2) he is subject to illusion; (3) he has a propensity to cheat others; and (4) his senses are imperfect. No one with these four imperfections can deliver perfect knowledge.
The Vedas are not produced by such an imperfect creature. Vedic knowledge was originally imparted by the Lord into the heart of Brahma, the first created living being, and Brahma in his turn disseminated this knowledge to his sons and disciples, who have handed it down through history.
Since the Lord is purnam, all-perfect, there is no possibility of His being subjected to the laws of material nature, which He controls.
In introduction of BG, it is mentioned that – “the words spoken by the Lord are called apauruseya, meaning that they are different from the words spoken by a person of the mundane world who is infected with four defects”*.
Thank you.
your servant
Harish
Virendra Trivedi, 10th April 2013
Nice question!!! And answers! Thank you all
I have a question in this regard:
What does it mean when we say that the perfected soul is free from four defects?
Don’t we see Gurus sometimes narrating a pastime of Krishna or Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in Bhagavatam class and repeatedly using the wrong names of devotees involved in it… Don’t we find Srila Gurudeva sending “Corrected versions” of daily thoughts?… Doesn’t it prove that they are also having tendency to commit mistakes (which would automatically imply that they are imperfect)? Why? Why not?
your servant,
Virendra Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 10th April 2013
Yes, bona fide spiritual masters are not claiming to be perfect. They may have apparent imperfections, and that would be a problem IF they invented their own process for becoming happy and if they were telling us about their own inventions or discoveries… but when they repeat what was said by the perfect source Krishna, then the perfection is there because of that connection to Krishna. Even if an imperfect being tries to recite the perfect knowledge, even if their delivery is imperfect, still the effect is a purification of those who receive that message within their heart.
Crude example is that child says “Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead”, suppose the child cannot say “Krishna” so says “kisstha” and child cannot say “is the Supreme Personality of Godhead”, so child says “is preme person god”… an adult who loves that child or finds the child cute, with patience if they hear this child saying “kisstha preme person god” will get that message nicely. 🙂
But you know, this imperfection of a saintly person can accepted by a person who has a particular quality… do you know what is that quality?
Also, do you know what it is to focus on the imperfections in the pure devotee?
Sincerely,
Mahabhagavat Das
Virendra Trivedi, 11th April 2013
Thank you prabhu for your wonderful reply!
So as far as I could grasp, you mean to say that the bonafide spiritual masters are free from four defects in the sense that they do not present or even desire to present anything different from the version of Krsna. Is my understanding correct?
I really want to know the answers of your last two questions also. Beg you to please continue. You simply aroused my interest and stopped half way. Please please enlighten me prabhu.
your servant,
Virendra Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 11th April 2013
Yes, correct, they are presenting without addition or subtraction the version of Krishna according to time, place, circumstances, but same principles. Again, question of what is principle and what is detail comes here, but pure devotee knows the application of that principle.
But you know, this imperfection of a saintly person can accepted by a person who has a particular quality… do you know what is that quality?
If I am “sadhu” then I can accept. This means that I am not honest to accept (and work to eliminate) my own imperfections, therefore I take pleasure in pointing out others’ imperfections. But if I am thoroughly honest, then I will know that this minor apparent imperfection in the composition of a pure devotee are not imperfection at all, but an opportunity for me to render some service to the pure devotee.
This is not to be misunderstood when a Vaishnava humbly offers correction that the Vaishnava is not honest 🙂 I had this experience some weeks ago, His Grace Apurva Prabhu, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada was supervising my effort to make Kheer for our Kshir Chor Gopinath in Toronto. And he was giving me copious amounts of corrections, very kindly and gently, he was totally honest though, but it was shaking up my false pride. Initially I was situated in all kinds of material modes thinking I know better because I am making kheer for so long etc., but simply trying as he said (he has 40 years experience cooking for Krishna) I realized that by accepting his corrections Gopinath may accept my service, but not if I am proud.
SB 1.5.11
tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo
yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api
nāmāny anantasya yaśo ‘ńkitāni yat
śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ
On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world’s misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.
From the purport…
It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man. He is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord, the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, people will become sane in their transactions.
Also, do you know what it is to focus on the imperfections in the pure devotee?
When I see imperfection in a pure devotee, that means my vision is ordinary. It means I am not advanced in spiritual understanding…
NOI verse 6
dṛṣṭaiḥ svabhāva-janitair vapuṣaś ca doṣair
na prākṛtatvam iha bhakta janasya paśyet
gańgāmbhasāḿ na khalu budbuda-phena-pańkair
brahma-dravatvam apagacchati nīra-dharmaiḥ
Being situated in his original Kṛṣṇa conscious position, a pure devotee does not identify with the body. Such a devotee should not be seen from a materialistic point of view. Indeed, one should overlook a devotee’s having a body born in a low family, a body with a bad complexion, a deformed body, or a diseased or infirm body. According to ordinary vision, such imperfections may seem prominent in the body of a pure devotee, but despite such seeming defects, the body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted. It is exactly like the waters of the Ganges, which sometimes during the rainy season are full of bubbles, foam and mud. The Ganges waters do not become polluted. Those who are advanced in spiritual understanding will bathe in the Ganges without considering the condition of the water.
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Mahabhagavat Das
Sanil, 11th April 2013
Hare Krishna Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances
All glories to Srila Gurudeva
If we try to understand the first defect ((1) he is certain to commit mistakes;) quoted by Harish Prabhu, we can see that a mundane person is certain to commit mistake, because of lack of knowledge or due to many other reasons. We cannot consider errors or omissions made by pure Vaishnavas like Srila Gurudeva while reproducing a Vedic content (as Mahabhagavat das Prabhu rightly indicated) as a mistake due to lack of knowledge, or due to illusion, or due to propensity to cheat others or due to having imperfect senses. But, the mundane person cannot be trusted, since, he is not in pure knowledge, has all the four defects present and not properly situated.
your servant,
Sanil kumar
Harish, 11th April 2013
Hare Krsna devotees !
Please accept my humble obeisances
All glories to Srila Gurudeva
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
This reminds me of one very nice devotee/counsellor of my parents here, he takes Bhagvatam class in a very unique way. He knowingly either cites different names or different nos. or something like that just to make sure that everyone is keenly listening. If somebody points him out, he is very happy and say very good it means you are not sleeping but if someone does not point out, then either he himself ask ‘Is everyone awake?’ or after the class he will pull everyone that today all of you seems to have a nice sleep during the class. So the devotee who knows him try to attend his class very attentively but the new ones they think that his memory is short.
It also reminds of the story “Punah mushiko bhava” which Srila Gurudeva uses quite often. By the mercy of sage who took pity on mouse it becomes a lion but the moment it becomes a lion it wants to pounce upon the same sage forgetting his unconditional mercy and then sage again has to convert it back to the mouse. In the same manner, it is the spiritual master himself who make us worthy from an insignificant position by imparting us with the Vedic wisdom/transcendental knowledge (divya gyan hridya prakasitho)
“I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, the deliverer of the fallen souls. His mercy turns the dumb into eloquent speakers and enables the lame to cross mountains.”
But after attaining some knowledge we start thinking ourselves advanced devotee and starts finding faults with the same spiritual master or other Vaishnavas. But we don’t have to worry, the spiritual master is far far more merciful than the sage, he does not say “punah mushiko bhava”, he very humbly accepts the correction also. He always remains ever merciful towards all – envious/non-envious/ignorant; ‘panditah samah darsinah”. But sorry to say, Krsna does not work that way. He forgives everything but not the Vaishnava apradha. The progress in devotional service happens gradually, sometimes in many years, sometimes many births but the downfall is immediate within days/minutes/seconds, one even does not come to know what happened, seems everything normal but one is out for ever.
Personally I see this once in a while slip of the tongue of the speaker/pravakta as a reminder to me to concentrate in the class as I have often observed that many times my mind goes out somewhere during the class and suddenly it comes back and I wonder that the speaker seems to have strayed away from the topic. Last week my parents told me that one of Srila Prabhupada disciples took their class and he introduced himself but although (of course) the class was appreciated but some of the devotees found a common error in the same. But when they discussed it later on among themselves, everyone had heard/understood it differently like somebody heard that Prabhu ji saying that he got initiated from Srila Prabhupada 31 years back but they were wondering how can it be possible when he disappeared more than 31 years back whereas others heard that he took initiation in 1931 but that too was not possible looking at his age but some heard that at age of 31 he got initiated. So same class but different perspectives only because of not hearing attentively.
The pravakta/speaker is observing everything whats going on in the minds of people, where they are concentrating, there are even mobile calls in between, some are talking, some are chanting on beads, some people going here and there, kids playing etc etc but still they try their best to help the devotees not to get distracted and in trying to make us avoid distractions in some cases there may be slip of tongue but it happens only because of us.
Srila Gurudeva says while answering one question in one of the lectures that we had in the recent CD that setbacks are sometimes good for us as it keeps the person humble and dependent on Krsna else one may feel proud thinking oneself very advanced and even go to the extent of thinking himself as a saktyaavesya avatara.
Coming back to the topic, as Sanil Kumar prabhu wrote that a spiritual master senses cannot be termed as imperfect senses bound to commit mistakes or in illusion or having the propensity to cheat others. A spiritual master senses are fully spiritualized working 24×7 for Krsna’s pleasure and so he is always working under the influence of internal potency. Sometimes we feel in a lecture upto the extent that we could have answered that question in a better way but we fail to understand that Krsna Himself is acting through the medium of the spiritual master and so He better knows how to answer/help the seeker/questioner in getting better realization.
If we hear Srila Prabhupada lectures, we will find in many lectures he used to ask devotees from where this noise is coming or sometimes tell people to stop making noise during the lecture, he once even was getting distracted from the sound of cutting of the vegetables in the kitchen (as told by Srila Gurudeva in one lecture) but then in some incidents he used to say ok leave it. Even sometimes Srila Gurudeva does so and then say ok let it be as it is. So does it mean that they cannot concentrate whereas even a little child can fully concentrates on television or playing with friends that nobody can distract him easily. No way. It is because
“tusyanti ca ramanti ca – the devotees derive great satisfaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about Me.”
The spiritual master is enjoying unlimited transcendental pleasure while listening/sharing the realizations he has got from his spiritual master or is getting while taking discourse on Bhagvad Gita or Srimad Bhagvatam as the words or names or pastimes of Krsna are non-different from Krsna. When the spiritual master is chanting or taking class from Srimad Bhagvatam he is personally interacting with Krsna and getting so much unlimited pleasure that he wants to share the same pleasure with the devotees also and he is objecting to distractions/sounds only because we can concentrate. And sometimes in ecstasy, repeat of same/different – words/names/sentence/verse or same/different – words/names/sentence/verse may happen but one thing is for sure they neither talk anything other than Krsna nor goes away from the subject.
Everyone every moment is struggling hard like general mass of people are struggling with the onslaughts of nature vs searching for happiness or better times ignorant of their precarious temporary position whereas we neophyte/aspiring devotees are struggling between the gravitational pull of material energy vs spiritual energy. The spiritual master is playing a dual role simultaneously serving the Gopis and acting on behalf of Krsna as a deliverer of poor souls.
Please forgive offenses committed while replying.
your servant,
Harish
Geetha, 11th April 2013
Hare Krishna,
Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you Prabhuji’s and Mataji for all your points I understood clearly not only the meaning of apaurusheya and many more things. Thank you once again.
Thanking you,
your servant,
Geetha
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Hare Krishna,
Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I read Bhagavat Gita, chapter 3, 40th sloka there I want to know what is the difference between Intelligence and Knowledge?
Please help me, if in my question any thing wrong please excuse me.
Thanking you,
your servant,
Geetha
Virendra, 31st March 2013
Hare Krishna mataji,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada and his faithful servitors!
Knowledge is information. Intelligence is the power to deliberate and discriminate.
Knowledge sharpens your intelligence.
your servant,
Virendra Rathin Mandal, 31st March 2013
Hare Krishna,
Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Srila Gurudev and Srimati Gurumataji,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Knowledge means knowing about the subject. In our case it is Krishna Consciousness. And intelligence meaning knowing how to apply the knowledge. In this sloka it is saying that when intelligence is bewildered by material desires it covers the knowledge.
I can give one example in this regard. Ravana was very knowledgeable person. He was a Brahmin. He was able to please Brahmadev and Lord Siva both. But his knowledge was contaminated with desires of ego and lust.
Although knowing identity of Mother Sita, he kidnapped her and knowing who Lord Sri Ram was he went to fight with Him. We can see that although Ravana was knowledgeable he did not use his intelligence well.
your Servant
Rathin Bhakta Shashank, 1st April 2013
Hare Krishna Prabhuji,
Dandvats Pranam.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
All Glories to Srila Gurudev and Srimati Gurumata ji.
All Glories to Devotees.
Very nicely explained Prabhuji. Very nice 🙂
your servant,
Shashank. Geetha, 2nd April 2013
Hare Krishna,
Pleace accept my humble obeisances
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Thank you Virendra Prabhu for you reply.
Thank you Rathin Mandal Prabhu for your explanation with an example I understood very clearly. Thank you once again.
Thanking you,
your servant,
Geetha.
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