Tag: faith

Of Devotion & Devotional Service

What is the difference between devotion and devotional service? Is it possible to perform devotional service without devotion? Is it possible to have devotion without performing devotional service?

Brajanath Das, 26 April 2015
Hare Krishna Dear Devotees!        

Please accept my humble obeisances!

All glories to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu!

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Please help me to understand the invisible line of difference between devotion and devotional service. 

your servant,

Brajanath Das

Bhaktin Aruni, 26 Apr 2015

Hare Krishna!          

Pamho, 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I think maybe devotion is the attitude and devotional service is the act …

aruni

Bhakta Jayakrishna, 27 April 2015

Hare krishna! Thank you Prabhu! 

I too had this doubt when first heard and yet never thought that there may be some serious difference.but i felt that there indeed exist some difference as, if ones devotion is not supported by some service in its way, it is most likely he lose his devotion also, (here i must confess that we neophyte devotees more or less are with such a stage,)and hence, devotion when backed up by service or activities suiting it is the devotional service, but i have no sastric reference and i wish to hear from our senior brothers who can give a better explanation.

your servant

Jayakrishna

Premananda Das, 27 April 2015

Hare Krishna

Devotion means ardent and  selfless affection  and dedication to a person or principle. According to Padma Purana one should always remember Lord Vishnu and never forget Him.This is called dhyana or meditation always remembering Krishna.

Srila Rupa Goswami says bhakti means devotional service to Krishna.Every service has some attractive features which drives the servitor progressively on and on.

A family man works day and night for his wife and children.A philanthropist works for the greater love of family and a nationalist for the cause of country and countrymen.The force that drives them is called a rasa or mellow (relationship) that is very sweet.Bhakti -rasa however does not finish with the end of life.It continues perpetually and therefore is called amrta that which does not die but exists perpetually.

According to Bhagavad Gita a little advancement in the bhakti rasa can save the devotee from greatest danger that is missing the opportunity of human life.The rasas derived from social and  family life or greater family life like altruism,philanthropy,socialism,communism nationalism does not guarantee next birth to be human life.

your servant

Premananda Das

Amogha Lila Das, 27 April 2015

Hare Krishna Prabhu. Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Devotion is cultivated through devotional service. There are nine processes by which one can cultivate devotion.

Sravanam, Kirtanam, Smaranam, Pada Sevanam, Arcanam, Vandanam, Dasyam, Sakhyam, Atma Nivedanam

Gurudeva often mentions these nine processes in his lectures and they are described by Prahlada Maharaja in the 7th Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam (SB 7.5.23-24):       

To hear about Sri Visnu’s transcendental name, His form, His characteristics, His possessions and His pastimes and to hear and chant about His pastimes, to remember them, to serve the lotus feet of the Lord, to respectfully offer service to the Lord, to offer prayers to the Lord, to become His servant, to consider the Lord one’s best friend and to offer Him everything-these nine processes are recognized as pure devotional service.

Following the above nine processes one can gradually advance in devotional service and progress through the nine stages of Bhakti yoga as described in the Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila, by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as follows:

“In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes finally fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Krsna consciousness.”

your humble servant,

Amogha Lila Das

Rantideva Das, 28 April 2015

My dear devotees,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I trust that you are all well.

Very nice question and answers regarding devotion and devotional service. However, this subject brought to mind another question concerning the same subject matter. Is it possible to perform devotional service without devotion? And what about devotion without devotional service?

I remain your worthless servant,

Rantideva das

Hare Krishna Das, 28 April 2015

Dear Prabhu,

Please accept my humble and respectful obeisances!

All Glories to His Divine Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari Gurumaharaj and Srimati Gurumata!

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Devotion in itself includes service. Without service, there is no actual devotion. It is only lip service. But, to stress the importance of service and protect it from sahajiaism, Srila Prabhupada used the term devotional service. I admit, I also have no quotes (reference lines) from Senior Vaisnavas. This is my perspective. Willing to hear from others.

Thanking You,

your servant,

Hare Krishna Das

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 30 April 2015

Dear Devotees,

Hare Krishna!

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

This discussion was very enlivening for me. Thank you to all who have participated in this discussion. The question is already answered, from reading the emails together.

Since Srila Gurudeva stresses a careful reading of Srila Prabhupada’s books for all of us, I am adding quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s books to solidify our understanding. I have made a few sentences bold, as they jumped out at me, but of course, every word of Srila Prabhupada is of utmost significance…

(from purport to SB 1.2.19)

A living being in his normal constitutional position is fully satisfied in spiritual bliss. This state of existence is called brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) or ātmā-nandī, or the state of self-satisfaction. This self-satisfaction is not like the satisfaction of the inactive fool. The inactive fool is in the state of foolish ignorance, whereas the self-satisfied ātmānandī is transcendental to the material state of existence. This stage of perfection is attained as soon as one is fixed in irrevocable devotional service. Devotional service is not inactivity, but the unalloyed activity of the soul.

The soul’s activity becomes adulterated in contact with matter, and as such the diseased activities are expressed in the form of lust, desire, hankering, inactivity, foolishness and sleep. The effect of devotional service becomes manifest by complete elimination of these effects of passion and ignorance. The devotee is fixed at once in the mode of goodness, and he makes further progress to rise to the position of Vāsudeva, or the state of unmixed sattva, or śuddha-sattva. Only in this śuddha-sattva state can one always see Kṛṣṇa eye to eye by dint of pure affection for the Lord

(from purport to SB 1.10.23)

Jitendriya means one who has full control over the senses. The senses are active parts of the body, and their activities cannot be stopped. The artificial means of the yogic processes to make the senses inactive has proved to be abject failure, even in the case of great yogīs like Viśvāmitra Muni. Viśvāmitra Muni controlled the senses by yogic trance, but when he happened to meet Menakā (a heavenly society woman), he became a victim of sex, and the artificial way of controlling the senses failed. But in the case of a pure devotee, the senses are not at all artificially stopped from doing anything, but they are given different good engagements. When the senses are engaged in more attractive activities, there is no chance of their being attracted by any inferior engagements. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the senses can be controlled only by better engagements. Devotional service necessitates purifying the senses or engaging them in the activities of devotional service. Devotional service is not inaction. Anything done in the service of the Lord becomes at once purified of its material nature.

(From the Introduction to the Nectar of Devotion)

Pure devotional service should be free from the desire for any material benefit or for sense gratification, as these desires are cultivated through fruitive activities and philosophical speculation. Generally, people are engaged in different activities to get some material profit, while most philosophers are engaged in proposing transcendental realization through volumes of word jugglery and speculation. Pure devotional service must always be free from such fruitive activities and philosophical speculations. One has to learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or pure devotional service, from the authorities by spontaneous loving service.

This devotional service is a sort of cultivation. It is not simply inaction for people who like to be inactive or devote their time to silent meditation. There are many different methods for people who want this, but cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is different. The particular word used by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī in this connection is anuśīlana, or cultivation by following the predecessor teachers (ācāryas). As soon as we say “cultivation,” we must refer to activity. Without activity, consciousness alone cannot help us.

I hope that these quotes help.

Sincerely,

Mahabhagavat Das

Rantideva das, 01 May 2015,

Reposting this question as no reply was received earlier…..

My dear devotees,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I trust that you are all well.

Very nice question and answers regarding devotion and devotional service. However, this subject brought to mind another question concerning the same subject matter. Is it possible to perform devotional service without devotion? And what about devotion without devotional service?

I remain your worthless servant,

Rantideva das

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 01 May 2015

Dear Rantideva Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Please forgive us, we didn’t mean to ignore your question, but somehow missed it.

It is possible to perform devotional service without devotion, in other words, it is called “ajnata sukriti” (unknowingly performed devotional service), this is when, for example, devotees engage others in devotional service without giving them the full details about how, why… this includes for example when devotees serve out Krishna Prasada for the masses, when they put on festivals like Jagannatha Ratha Yatra, or when they go out on Harinam Sankirtan, or go in public wearing Tilaka and devotional attire, etc.

Or, it could be like someone plants a tree and some devotee uses the fruits and flowers from that tree to offer to the Lord, the person who planted the tree gets the benefit of assisting in devotional service.

This also includes the devotees who feel no devotion but go through the motions anyways, for example, chant mechanically, or dance enthusiastically either because of fear or respect for the spiritual master, or to keep up with their vows or commitments. While they don’t make as much advancement as if it were done attentively and devotedly and genuinely, but still, they make some progress, so for example Srila Gurudeva says “mechanical chanting is better than no chanting”, and “offensive chanting is still better than no chanting”, etc. He also says “dance enthusiastically anyway and the ecstasy will come”, when asked about dancing in Kirtan.

Often it is seen that even such service, performed apparently without devotion, fructifies into full-fledged devotional service, I am one such example who did so much devotional service without any devotion and now I feel some attraction to pleasing Guru and Krishna. All glories to the wonderful devotees who engaged me in service throughout my life, my mother, father, cousins, teachers, devotees all over the world, Bhaktimarga Swami, devotees in Toronto, the book distributor who gave a copy of the Bhagavad Gita even though I was undeserving, Srila Gurudeva for giving me his personal attention even though I am undeserving, the list goes on and on, and I don’t even know how to express my gratitude to them all!

Of course, such “service without devotion” devotional service does not count as “pure devotional service”. 🙂

It is however, not possible to have any devotion without performing devotional service, as was hopefully clear from the various answers and Srila Prabhupada’s writings.

I hope this helped, I beg all group members that if I have misunderstood something, or created some misunderstanding, please do kindly help and correct me.

your servant,

Mahabhagavat Das

Haldhar Prabhu, 01 May 2015

Hare Krsna Mahabhagavat Prabhuji and Rantideva Prabhuji for one more perfect question and perfect answer.

I understood the question only after the answer 🙂

Hare Krsna !

your servant,

Haldhar Das

Rantideva das, 04 May 2015

My dear Godbrother,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

I was thinking about Jayananda prabhu. How he could engage anyone in Sri Krishna’s service. He could take anyone from the street, say a homeless man or drunkard, and engage him in helping to build  a ratha cart. So this homeless man is engaged in devotional service but has no devotion for the Lord. He’s just working in hopes of receiving a free meal afterwards. Sometimes we even see how a homeless person will come to the temple on Sunday for a free meal. In both cases they are reaping great benefit by performing service for the Lord, or hearing the pastimes of the Lord, or taking Krishna prasadam.

 Since today is Jayananda Prabhu’s disappearance day, May 1, 1977, this topic of devotional service is very appropriate. By the mercy of Srila Gurudeva and Lord Sri Krishna, may we all reach the platform of pure loving service that our dear Jayananda Thakur displayed while here in this material world.

I remain your worthless servant,

Rantideva das

(das is the important part)

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 05 May 2015

Dear Rantideva Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Actually I have met one hippie encouraged by Jayananda Prabhu… this was in Puerto Rico, I was visiting the Hare Krishna temple in Gurabo with my wife for a “retreat”, we once went to downtown San Juan. I had my Tilak on but was dressed in street clothes. An elderly man was doing something with some iron bars, some kind of welding work, and suddenly he saw me and called out “Hare Krishna, are you from the temple in Gurabo”, I was amazed and pleasantly surprised. Then he introduced himself as Lance, went on to describe how he “worked with” one taxi driver we consider a great saint, immediately I knew he was talking about Jayananda Prabhu.This man had met Srila Prabhupada even. I asked him what happened, and he sadly replied that with the drugs, he’d lost most of his intelligence, and even then, he heard only partially, and he does not remember much, but he appreciates everything.

It was the highlight of my day, practically the highlight of that trip, and a reaffirmation of the power of Sankirtan, tell everyone about Krishna, deliver Krishna’s mercy to them, and they will never forget Krishna, and this will help them, if not in this birth, then in the next. Clearly, Lance has performed some devotional service, with or without devotion, but I think the devotion had already started to manifest long ago…

your servant,

Mahabhagavat Das

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How to go deep into meditation

How to go deep into meditation? How to overcome the tyranny of the mind? What can we do to improve the quality of our meditation?

Kaspars, 30 January 2016

Dear Devotees!

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Gurudeva and Gurumata! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

How to go deep in meditation? Our Gurudev Sankarshan Maharaj mentions that tamasic / rajasic mood will not help. Ok. Then what helps to deepen the meditative moods of bhakti to Krishna in devotion. Please, dear devotees, kindly give some glimpse about your practice of meditational state of mind and how you get that and how you keep being like that.

Thank you.

Kaspars

Seba, 30 January 2016

Sir, 

I am chanting the Hare Krishna mantra daily on the beads still I feel difficulty in deep meditation, my thoughts are in tandem to my repetition to the mantra. 

Kindly help

Thanks

Seba

Shyamapriya devi dasi, 30 January 2016

Hare Krishna Bhakta Kaspars,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva and Srimati Gurumataji.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your questions.

Just for comparison, my current condition is like that of a surfer, who is struggling to balance on the surfboard. I am constantly battling with the turbulent waves of thoughts in my mind, which try to push me off the board and I have to again and again try to get back on my board and try to listen to the names. This happens almost everyday. And just like the surfer has to check the time of high tides and low tides during a day before venturing into the sea, to deepen our meditation – the time of the day plays a significant role. And Srila Gurudeva gave the key to dive into that deep meditation. 

The following is an excerpt from Srila Gurudeva’s book ‘Truth Works'(Questions and Answers for reviving your divine existence, Vol.1 (page 137) 

“The key to focused japa chanting is to rise early in the morning and finish one’s daily quota of japa chanting before sunrise. This time of the day is known as brahma-muhurta. It is a very spiritual time of the day when it is very easy to keep one’s mind fixed on the holy names. At this time of the day the mode of goodness predominates. This is why it is so easy to chant during this time period. Once the sun comes up, the atmosphere shifts into the mode of passion, a time for activity and productivity; then it becomes very difficult to sit and peacefully meditate on the holy names. If for some reason you cannot complete your japa before sunrise then you must finish it before you take your morning meal. If you make this serious commitment and stick to it every day, you will be able to train your mind to stay absorbed nicely during your japa chanting. It is simply a matter of training and practise.” 

Almost everyone of us here must have experienced the difference in meditating on japa at different times of the day- early morning, noon or evening or night time. And as recommended by the acaryas and with experience we can see that early morning hours, before the sunrise is the best time to practise and help deepen our meditation on mantra. It is also recommended to try to focus the mind on hearing the syllables of Hare Krishna mantra by pronouncing each word of the mantra clearly.

Time is just one of the factors. If we go further then there are ten offenses one must avoid which will further help to deepen our meditation and so on. I am sure some wonderful realizations of the devotees in the group will follow up this post for the benefit of everyone.

Sincerely,

Shyamapriya devi dasi

Guru Vandana devi Dasi, 30 January 2016

Hare Krishna!

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva and Srimati Gurumata.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Gurudeva’s Thought for the day Jan 28, 2016  is very inspiring:

“As within, so without.In other words, whatever consciousness you cultivate within your heart is the atmosphere that you will create or manifest in the world that surrounds you. So now decide what kind of atmosphere you would like to live in and seriously cultivate that atmosphere within your heart. In other words, if you want to live in a peaceful, God conscious or Krishna conscious environment, you must always hear about, speak about and think about Lord Sri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The magic of this is that by doing so you will exert an uplifting influence on your surroundings.”

“Whatever consciousness you cultivate within your heart is the atmosphere that you will create” My practical experience for chanting 2 hours of 16 rounds is to prepare our consciousness for 22 hours for it.   When we think of nonsense for 22 hours ,   there is no focus on the Holy name during those 2 hours.

Rajasic and Tamasic moods will not help because the mind is not peaceful.

Some of these prayers help and keep praying always..

” O Krishna, please help me connect with You in my chanting. O compassionate Krishna please help me to realize that Your Holy name is non different from you. Inspire me to listen to Your Holy name as carefully as I listen to a message from a loved one”

Speak to our mind

” My dear mind please call Krishna, then don’t ignore Him. My dear mind please don’t ignore the presence of the Lord while chanting please, please, please”. 

In nectar of Instruction Verse 8, Srila Prabhupada writes about stages of perfection,

“In the neophyte stage one should always engage in hearing krsna-katha. This is called sranava-dasa, the stage of hearing. By constantly hearing the transcendental holy name of Krsna and hearing of His transcendental form, qualities and pastimes, one can attain to the stage of acceptance called varana-dasa. When one attains this stage, he becomes attached to the hearing of krsna-katha. When one is able to chant in ecstasy, he attains the stage of smaranavastha, the stage of remembering. Recollection, absorption, meditation, constant remembrance and trance are the five items of progressive krishna-smarana. At first, remembrance of Krishna may be interrupted at intervals, but later remembrance proceeds uninterrupted. When remembrance is uninterrupted, it becomes concentrated and is called meditation. When meditation expands and becomes constant, it is called anusmrti. By uninterrupted and unceasing anusmrti one enters the stage of samadhi, or spiritual trance. After smarana-dasa or samadhi has fully developed, the soul comes to understand his original constitutional position. At that time he can perfectly and clearly understand his eternal relationship with Krishna. That is called sampatti-dasa, the perfection of life.”

Thank you for this wonderful question, this makes me remember to take up Krishna consciousness seriously.

your servant

Guru Vandana devi dasi

Alakananda Devi Dasi, 31 January 2016

Hare Krishna devotees,

All glories to Srila Gurudeva and Gurumataji

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Thank you all for your wonderful insights on how to perfect the chanting of the mantra on japa beads. The information given inspires me to become a better devotee of guru and Lord Krishna.

yours humbly,

Alakananda Devi Dasi

Mahabhagavat Das, 02 February 2016

Dear Bhakta Bushanlal Raina,

Hare Krishna!

Your choice is whether to pay attention to your thoughts or to your chanting. If you pay no attention to the thoughts, the mind will automatically come and listen to the Hare Krishna Mahamantra, of course, it will try to distract you with thoughts, but again, your choice to pay attention makes the difference. Try it out.

Sincerely,

Mahabhagavat Das

Mahabhagavat Das, 02 February 2016

Dear Kaspars,

Hare Krishna!

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

This desire you have is a very wonderful desire, and if you repeatedly beg Krishna, He will fulfill your desire.

Sincerely,

Mahabhagavat Das

Haresh Bakshi, 03 February 2016

Hare Krishna bhakta-s, 

Based on my own experience, I can say that chanting is as easy as it is effective. In this age, it is the easiest path to realization.

Thanks and namaste

Haresh Bakshi

Shridhar Prabhu, 17 February 2016

Hare Krishna,

Please accept my humble obeisances,

All Glories to Srila Gurudeva !

All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Gurudeva!

Meditation means absorption (in Lord or His Absolute aspects). Absorption comes from intense desire (tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam). Intense desire shall arise when we are convinced of the ultimate goal of life single pointedly, without doubt. 

Therefore we must first strengthen our faith in the ultimate goal of life being devotional service to Krishna,

that there is nothing in this whole material world that is worth comparing to devotional service of the Lord. That devotional service 

is unlike any mundane service which instead of demanding a pay (salary), rather deserves a pay to be allowed to be performed. 

Once our faith gets more and more narrowed and firm in this process then we’ll also realize that material nature will keep tossing us into ignorance and passion helplessly, which we cannot fight on our own strength. Due to our anarthas always appearing at any and every time, distancing us away from Lord(through service, His devotees, His pastimes, His qualities, His form, Holy Names, etc..), we feel separation. The longing/hankering of the soul to relish that devotional engagement multiplies, and results into meditation. 

Therefore faith needs to be strengthened, which happens by sincerely striving for practicing a regulated life in the association of devotees and under the guidance of seniors. Association of devotees is explained in Nectar of Instruction, text 4. Hearing from seniors is very important.

The importance of following a regulative life as instructed by the spiritual master has been emphasized in the Preface to Nectar of Instruction. My favorite paragraph from Preface is:

“In all spiritual affairs, one’s first duty is to control his mind and senses. Unless one controls his mind and senses, one cannot make any advancement in spiritual life. Everyone within this material world is engrossed in the modes of passion and ignorance. One must promote himself to the platform of goodness, sattva-guṇa, by following the instructions of Rūpa Gosvāmī, and then everything concerning how to make further progress will be revealed.”

Therefore, while encountering the unavoidable limitless ignorance and passion in the path of devotional service, we may often face despondency and despair. But somehow or the other ignoring these symptoms we must, dutifully and faithfully, if not meditatively, execute devotional service aiming for improvement. Then meditation shall come. 

Also, of the 9 processes of devotional service, visno-smaranam or remembrance of the Lord is 3rd and comes after sravanam and kirtanam, indicating, the automatic result of proper hearing and chanting/preaching is – smaranam (or meditation).

your servant

Shridhar Das

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Science vs Scriptures

Is it science vs. scripture? Could ancient scripture be so advanced that modern science cannot yet understand it?

Nikhil Mishra, 16 October 2017

Hare Krsna devotees

Please accept my humble obeisances

Though this is true that my heart feel peace when i sing glories and pastimes of Lord yet there arise confusions in my mind when we read in shastras that Suryadev and Chandradev were demigods while science says them to be just planets and similar other such confusions.

Only thing that is left in such confusions is to beg from Lord to keep my mind hooked into His names and reveal His merciful presence in my heart.

May be at some later stage, i would be able to understand all this better.

Hari Bol
nikhil

Bhakta Sunil, 16 October 2017

Hare Krishna

Please accept my humble respects

All glories to Srila Gurudeva

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Vedic science comes long before the mundane science and is constant whereas theories of mundane science keeps changing because mundane science is based on our Limited senses

The following thought for the day based on the vedic version helps us to understand this :-
Life Did Not Explode Out of Nothing — 17 July 2011

Uploaded from Bhaktivedanta Ashram, Austin, Texas USA

There is no doubt that we’ve been given the most challenging assignment imaginable. Our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, has ordered us to deliver everyone from illusion by teaching them what is their origin and how to perfect their relationship with that origin. At the present moment the popular theory is that life has evolved from a random combination of chemicals, which originally exploded out of nothing. It’s no wonder that people are so bewildered and frustrated when such an empty, meaningless and dogmatic cosmology is being crammed down their throats. Therefore out of compassion upon these poor suffering fellows we must constantly tax our brains to how to drive away this cosmological cloud of illusion with the brilliant sun of transcendental knowledge so that everyone will understand who they are and how to be who they are and thus become unlimitedly happy.

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

www.joincourse.com

—

Sincerely,

Bhakta Sunil

Nikhil Mishra, 19 October 2017

Thank you so much sunil prabhu for your answer. I beg mercy of exalted vaishnavas so that i can calm down my argumentative mind in light of realisation (which does occur in glimpses but then fades away).
thanks again

nikhil

Manoj Tripathi, 19 October 2017

Hare Krsna Prabhujis and Matajis,

There are several articles, books, lectures and videos by HG Sadaputa Prabhu (Dr. Richard L. Thompson) and other devotees which are very good at removing the conditioning caused by the modern so-called-scientific dogma.

Some things that I remember from his books:
One of the greatest problem with the modern world-view is that a model for understanding the things around us is taken to be the reality. This model assumes that

  1. The laws valid around us are applicable at all points in space and time (that is how they talk about things happening in distant stars and black holes etc.)
  2. These laws are simple mathematical statements, and all phenomena is reducible (that is why modern scientists tend to assume that consciousness is “made up of” constituent material elements, although the vedic version is that the soul which causes consciousness is irreducible)
  3. That which exists is observable (observable by their choice of methods. If we say, chant Hare Krsna and you will see Krsna face to face, they won’t accept this method of observation).
    As Srila Prabhupada said, this modern science is atheism in the garb of science.

May we develop more and more faith in Srila Prabhupada’s words and his pure representatives’ words.

Please forgive me and correct me if anything is incorrect/not in parampara.

Nikhil Mishra, 21 October 2017

Thanks manoj prabhu for carry forwarding the discussion.

Somehow besides having faith in shastras , some stuff keep appearing in mind. for example, now when i see sun, i dont say that suryadev has arrived on his chariot but mind thinks , so here comes another rotation of earth on its axis and a new day starts.

i also understand that mind enjoys such intellectual thoughts but avoid real work. when it comes to wake up early and chant hari-naam, it does not obey. if i have a flight at 5 am, i wake up but for hari naam, no!!

i beg mercy of all vaisnavas and creator of this world to kindly remove tamo and rajo guna from my inside.and let Krsna in my heart propel me towards His will.

sincerely
nikhil

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 27 October 2017

Dear Nikhil, Sunil, and Manoj,

Hare Krishna!

Please kindly accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Gurudeva.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Sriman Nikhil, thank you for breaking a long drought. The last question asked in this forum was who knows when! 🙂

Also, thank you both Sriman Sunil and Sriman Manoj for encouraging a healthy understanding of this subject matter! This is what this group is for – Srila Prabhupada said “discuss it threadbare” and Srila Gurudeva encourages us to have these discussions, and that is why this group exists.

This is what I have gathered…

Positioning science “vs” shastras is not beneficial to anyone. I learned this from Chaitanya Charan Prabhu in detail. They are complementary – Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada maintain that the genuine scientist will end up at the lotus feet of Krishna eventually, even if it takes longer than necessary.

But as Vaisesika Prabhu taught me “you can take a horse to the water – you cannot make him drink, you can lead a man to wisdom – you can’t make him think”.

For example, science can tell you that when the trigger of a gun is pulled when the gun is loaded with
ammunition, a projectile bullet will accelerate and proceed at a certain velocity in a certain trajectory. It can also tell you what will happen when that bullet hits the body of a human being in terms of physics and biology. However, science cannot say “should that trigger be pulled?”, and “what will be the future consequence of that trigger pull?” and “why was that trigger pulled”.

Shastra is meant to give us understanding of that which is essentially beyond our understanding materially speaking. For example, take the modes of material nature, 3 in number. When those 3 combine, they make 9 combinations. When the 9 combinations of those combine, they make 81 variants. When the 81 variants combine, they make 6561 variables, and when they combine, they make 43,046,721 combinations. This combination continues infinitely, and each of us is governed by the specifics of the modes of material natures we have acquired over billions of lives. For the sake of discussion, let’s stop here for now – now, when two individuals each governed by 43 million variables interact with each other, their interactions are governed now by 1,800 trillion variables, plus the results of each person’s past karmic reactions and karmic debts to others and each other. When we get to that level of complexity, no material science can help you to understand what is exactly going on. Surely, we can speculate, but we cannot find a solution to this ever-endingly increasing complexity, seen as “chaos” or “randomness” by those who can’t see the nuances.

But, the intelligent person will ask, OK, how can I dissolve the modes of material nature acting upon me? Devotional service is the only way. The shastra or scripture does not waste time in useless frivolous pursuits like trying to categorize the millions billions trillions of combinations of the modes of material nature, but tells us how to get rid of them altogether, and we can experience our lives getting simpler and simpler when we practice devotional service. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

apraarabdha phalam paapam
kutam bijam phalonmukham
kramenaiva praliyeta
vishnu bhakti rataatmanaam

From Padma Purana – the complexities of karmic actions and reactions, lying in the form of hidden seeds, sprouting plants, and those flowering and bearing fruit, can all be systematically countered by executing vishnu bhakti

Think about a banyan tree which gives thousands of fruits with hundreds of seeds inside each fruit. Material science can never answer the question “how many trees are inside this seed”, but spiritual science can just fry that seed and ensure zero trees inside the seed.

Now for example, your question about the planets… take this passage from Srila Prabhupada’s introduction To the Bhagavad Gita As It I:

“For instance, the Lord has control over the universal affairs of material nature, as will be explained in the later chapters of Bhagavad-gītā. Material nature is not independent. She is acting under the directions of the Supreme Lord. As Lord Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: “This material nature is working under My direction.” When we see wonderful things happening in the cosmic nature, we should know that behind this cosmic manifestation there is a controller. Nothing could be manifested without being controlled. It is childish not to consider the controller. For instance, a child may think that an automobile is quite wonderful to be able to run without a horse or other animal pulling it, but a sane man knows the nature of the automobile’s engineering arrangement. He always knows that behind the machinery there is a man, a driver. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the driver under whose direction everything is working.”

Is there a single instance of any machine we have created that works on its own without direction? Even the most advanced machine learning systems need someone to set up the test set, the training set, the specific implementation of some algorithms, and a feedback network… does any computer suddenly manifest out of thin air without someone trying to make it come about? Does a cell phone just manifest without effort by someone? So if such insignificant things require so many tens of thousands of people to conceive, design, plan, produce, ship, stock, sell, buy, and operate… is it not naive to assume that the planets are working so beautifully in tandem and in perfect harmony all by themselves with no controller?

Just because I may not see a controller, is that sufficient evidence to conclude that there is no controller? Isn’t that an absurd conclusion? Sure, a material scientist can say “I don’t know that there is a controller”, but the same scientist would be a blind follower if he said “I know that there is no controller”. Similarly, many scientists who are honest say “I don’t know if there is a God”, we can accept that they are admitting their ignorance, but if they say “I know there isn’t a God”, we would call them a fool and proceed to ignore them, they deserve to be ignored.

So Suryadev, or Vivaswan, and Chandradev, both “are”, not “were”. If you qualify yourself, you can see them face to face, in fact, if you qualify yourself, you can occupy their post too. But why waste your time in the material realm when Krishna is waiting for you to return to Him in the spiritual realm where there is no necessity of sun. moon, stars, where everything and everyone is self-effulgent?

I hope this helps. Setup 1,2, 3 or more alarm clocks in 2-3 minute increments, leave them far from your bed, and then rise early and chant with loving determination

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

every morning, minimum 16 rounds on your garland of 108 beads daily.

And anyone or anything that opposes this program, you can overcome it with every single bit of power you can muster. This is war, for your own sake. Your prayers are already answered – Krishna has sent you Guru, and Krishna has put you in a community where you will be well supported to fulfill your spiritual desires. Krishna has given you all facility.

Dear jiva going by the name of Nikhil, “you” are at stake here. You stand to be liberated from all material bondage if you follow this process. And if you don’t make the right choices, you stand to remain trapped in another birth, another old age, another set of diseases, and yet another death, one after another ad infinitum. And not to mention slavery to the mad mind.

But, little jiva, the choice is yours to make, the consequences of your choices are yours to deal with also.

Now, what will you choose to do?

Sincerely,
Mahabhagavat Das

Nikhil Mishra, 29 October 2017

Thanks Mahabhagvat prabhu for such an illustrative answer.

The whole discussion comes to this: “follow the process and verify the claims yourself made by shastras(Scriptures).”

Though i am still skeptical seeing God face to face ( though i was always fancied from stories of Bhakta Dhruva and Prahlad having darshan of God face to face), still i do realise presence of Him in terms of peaceful state of mind when i read holy-books and chant holy-names or participate in kirtan. May be i taste occasionally Shant-rasa.

Through your advice and process , i would work to change the neuroplasticity of my stubborn mind to get up early in morning and take shelter of hari-naam. Lets see what happens next !

Thank you so much again for the trouble you took to write such a long answer.

Hari-bol.
sincerely
Nikhil

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Dealing with Doubt

Jessica M, 05th November 2012

What should one do when they begin to experience doubts while on the path to Krishna consciousness?
I have been chanting for five months now and reading the Gita As It Is as well. I don’t know any devotees in my area though and have a lot of curiosity and begin to find myself reading material that endorses a more impersonalistic viewpoint from which I first came from before learning about and accepting Krishna consciousness. I feel a bit torn…At first I felt so convicted, while chanting, and now I’m doubting things.
I would love to feel that sense of conviction, faith, again. Any advice?

Thank you. Hare Krishna!

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 05th November 2012

Jessica,

Hare Krishna!

Thank you so much for writing in!

We welcome encouragement and support for Jessica from the global community here! Please don’t let her think that she is all alone on this path of Bhakti. This community is especially for those who live far from association of devotees, but of course, anyone who is genuinely desirous of spiritual advancement can benefit from this.

What you are going through is natural. I also came from a phase in life where impersonalistic philosophy dominated. As long as we are not fixed up in devotional service, this comes back again and again. It is a very seductive philosophy, because it encourages the material mind to remain as it is today, the undisputed master of the soul.

Whenever we think about something, one pragmatic thing to do is to assess who is to gain from a course of action. For example politicians push projects where they or their close circle will gain… actors promote goods which increase their own wealth, and so on, the world is full of such examples.

Impersonalistic philosophy does not have any genuine element of surrender to God… so that means the mind remains the master – the mind chooses what to do and what not to do, the mind disguises actions and thoughts and words as “realizations from the impersonal oneness”, but if we see carefully it is just rantings of the mind.

You should ask your doubts, specific individual doubts, the questions should be asked submissively so that those who have the knowledge are inclined and encouraged and pleased to share with you. When you get the answers, do your best to act on them. If you don’t act on the answers received, then they will remain mere theories.

Bhakti Yoga is very very personal, and it is experiential… what is involved for an experience to occur? Some effort! 🙂

So, why don’t you wholeheartedly participate in the activities of this group – this question is surely a start!

Sincerely,
Mahabhagavat Das

Virendra Trivedi, 06th November 2012

Dear Jessica,

Hare Krsna.

I asked similar question many years back to a senior devotee in a public forum and he gravely replied: “If you have doubt then come out challenging; willing to be defeated by authoritative reference and ready to be convinced by logical reasoning. This doubting phase is a dangerous situation. Don’t you know what Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita? Samsayatma vinashyati: The doubting soul is ruined. So don’t delay it. Act fast.”

So that is all I can advice you.

But here is something more I can tell you from my personal experience: I acted on his advice and I was saved from being ruined. To be defeated or corrected by devotees is also a very very good fortune which most people in this world do not have.

Just expose your doubts in this transcendental e-association of devotees as HG Mahabhagavat prabhu has suggested and see them replaced with your previous sense of conviction and faith once again. Participate in the association of devotees more often and their love will not let you feel torn anymore. You will certainly keep going higher and higher in spiritual life 🙂

Sincerely,
Virendra

Rahul Mangla, 06th November 2012

Hare Krishna,

Welcome to this wonderful group of devotees Jessica mataji. Please share your doubts in this group and I am sure your lost conviction and faith will return.

your servant,
Rahul

Rupa Manjari devi dasi, 06th November 2012

Hare Krishna

Dear Jessica

Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!
All glories to Srila Prahbupada!

Doubts are natural on this process of devotional service and are nothing to be ashamed of.  When we first come to Krsna consciousness there is some faith called Sraddha, due to the association of some devotees or the holy named that incites are to take up the process, then there is a long process before we get to
nistha (firm unflinching faith).  We first have to go through the stage of sadhu sanga (associating with the devotees) bajana kriya, (we start taking up the process, taking shelter of a bona fide spiritual master), and the long desert of anartha avritti, the clearing of the unwanted things within the heart).  So during this stage doubts are natural, and clearing these doubts by making humble inquiries are all about  the process.

This Krishna conciousness process does not require blind – faith, in fact blind fact is actually discouraged, that is why the faith you see in advanced devotees are strong, it is based on realization through pratical experience. But I assure you they also had to go through the stage which we all are going through, the doubting stage. Even my beloved Spiritual master his Grace Srimad Sankarshana das Adhikari often speaks of the time he first came to Krsna consciousness – he was also influenced by the impersonal Mayavadi philosophy, and was reluctant at first to surrender to his now beloved Spirtual master  His divine grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

But through association, he especially mentions the association Visnujana Swami his faith increased to the stage he had firm faith in Srila Prahbupada and now look at him now!  Complete faith, no doubts to the point his only desire is to serve Srila Praahbupada, by bringing and guiding everyone to Krsna consciousness.  Every minute, every second, he is engaged in answering e-mails,  because his only desire is to clear up the doubts of all those who inquire from him so they can too progess and experience the sublime existence of being pure Krsna conscious.

Thus my spiritual master is constantly encouraging me to bring all my doubts to him.  Sometimes I brings my doubts up with other devotees  other devotees, and other times to my spiritual master. My spiritual master has a wondeful way of eradicating my doubts immediately but  some times it takes time, and it comes down to “lets just continue this process and then wait for Krsna to revealed the answers because this process is so potent and real, and tangible, and though sometimes the mind may decieve you to think otherwise, once someone begins they develop a higher taste, and so once they begin they can never fully go back to there original mindset, in other words, they  can not actually fully enter material existence again.  Many times I felt like running back to my christian ways going back to church, because of some aspects I could not yet understand, but it would take me only one hour in the church to realize they were missing the missing link which Krsna Consciousness has.  I see proof of this all the time when I am distributing books or prasadam on the street.  I meet many people who
have taken up the process before me, and for some reason or other, they stop, but the faith doesn’t go. They are so convinced of the authenticisty of Krsna consciousness, they still read Bhagavad-gita, or at least revere it, and tell others about Krsna consciousness, in contrast to those who leave other systems of religious practice which is based on blind faith,  often become athiests.

Personally I dabled a little bit in the impersonal philosphy, and my first doubt was, “This world is real but  temporary “I was convinced it was unreal, but inquires eradicated that doubt.  But the strongest doubts I had to deal with was my christian conditioning.  And with Krsna consciousness there is a lot of doubts that can come if you are from Christian background  the first of course being the deity form of the Lord which to a condition Christian is “idol worship”, and of course Krsna lets Maya test you a bit, to see where you go for shelter, whether you take shelter of your mind, or his devotees.  On this point though I inquired and I could therotically understand the post box anology, (as you send a letter through the post box, the Lord allows us to worship him through his  authorised diety form, it  is the Lord’s mercy because he appears to us in material form, because our eyes to not have the spiritual vision to see him),  but still some doubt was lingering but then one day nine months after I started taking up the process Krsna did something wonderful.  One of the devotees in my community was going to India and wanted me to take care of her Radha Krsna dieties.  She asked me to do arti everyday for them, offer, flower, ghee lamp and insense and of course offering of food.  They at first appeared just like statues but I stared doing arti for them and offerings, and by the end of the month I could actually realize the mercy of Krsna through his diety.  Through this intimate service I could experience a attraction for Radha and Krsna devoloping and so felt reciporaction from them.

The process of Krsna consciousness can sometimes be diffcult to understand intellectually but without a doubt if you give it some time you will understand it practically through experience, as Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita 9.2

raja-vidya raja-ghuyam
pavitram idam uttamam
pratyaksavagamam dharmyam
su–sukham kartum avayayam

“This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets.  It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion.  It is everlasting, and it
is joyfully performed.”

So I wish to encourage you Jessica, we have all been there and are still there to various degrees, but if you inquire from devotees in this forum, and inquire from senior devotees.  I especially reccommend to humbly inquire from pure devotee becasue they can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.  BG 4.34, “Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.  Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.  The self-realized souls can  impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.”  So I especially enccourage you to bring you doubts to His Grace Srimad Sankarshan das Adhikari, with which you are already his student on his e- course.

You can e-mail him at sda@backtohome.com and I can guarantee he will be delighted to answer you inquiries.  Of course we are also happy to answer your inquiries to the best of our abilities.  Many of my doubts were cleared up just through inquring from devottees in my community, and a lot of mine are getting cleared up through this forum.
Some through direct inquiry and others through the inquiries of others.  And finally just keep with the process, eventually, everything will become revealed,

BG 10.10

tesam satata-yuktanam
bhajatam priti-purvakam
dadmi buddhi-yogam tam
yena mam upayanti ti

“To all those who are constantly devoted to serving me with love I give the understanding by which they can come to me.”

your servant
Rupa Manjari devi dasi

Shobha, 07th November 2012

Hare Krishna
Please accept my humble obeisances,
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!
All glories to Srila Prahbupada!

Very nice answer. Thank you for sharing your realization.

your humble servant,
Shobha

Hemanga Das, 08th November 2012

Hare Krishna Devotees,

Please kindly accept my humble obeisances
All glories to Srila Gurudeva
All glories to Srila Prabhupada

It’s so enlivening to read devotee emails who are always up to guide others in spiritual path. Thank you Rupa Manjari Devi Dasi Mataji for sharing your experience.
This present Karthik month is like a Mega Sale.Any effort to chant more rounds or read Srila Prabhupada books will definitely help in spiritual advancement.Let’s all utilize this wonderful opportunity.

your servant,
Hemanth

Rahul Mangla, 10th November 2012

Hare Krishna to all devotees,

Please accept my humble obeisances!
All glories to Srila Gurudev & Srimati Gurumata.
All glories to Srila Prabhupad.

Please find below link which focuses on the detrimental effects of doubt in the path of devotion.

http://archive.org/stream/SriKrishnaKathamritaBinduIssue288/bindu288#page/n0/mode/2up

Hare Krishna,

your servant,
Rahul

Tirtharaja Dasa, 15th November 2012

Hare Krishna Jessicca,

When one starts experiencing doubts, that is a sign of making spiritual progress for the faith we have on Krishna is not blind faith but is faith with a purpose that is backed by Shastra (Krishnas own words or descriptions of
Krishna and the like) and emulated by great saintly personalities down the ions of time.

There is a very nice book on this matter and I advise that if you can gret a copy then get a copy immediately for it deals with this matter of doubt precisely. Conclusively we have to practically read all of Srila Prabhpuadas books but for starters this is a good starting point. The book is entitled Obstacles on the Path of Devotional Service by Srila Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami.

Just to give you a test, He writes quoting from Bhagavad-gita (7.27 purport) p. 2 “…Due to desire and hte, the ignorant person wants to come one with the supreme Lord (impersonalism) and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead” One form this rebellion takes is doubts towards the teachings of the revealed scriptures and on the same page…Ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness; they fall down. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this life nor the next..”. further, “…The doubts that have arisen in your heart because of ignorance should be slashed with the weapon of knowledge. Armed with yoga, arise and fight.” and He concludes, … Meditation on these verses has been helpful in curing my doubt.

In his own words he advises…” Until one reaches the liberated stage, doubts will continue to come. They may not be serious, or they can become so grave that they can impede our progress. We should not hide the fact and bluff as if we are perfect. We have to learn how to deal with the obstacles on the path.

I hope this helps

your lowly servant,
Tirtharaja Dasa.

Sunil, 15th November 2012

Hare Krishna

Please accept my humble obeisances
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

Respected Jessica I have read your question. I humbly suggest to you that you try to chant as attentively and sincerely as you can. Process of Chanting is like meeting with God through transcendental sound vibrations

And when you are free please give as much time as you can , to reading Srila Prabhupada’s books. If any question or doubt comes
to your mind while reading Srila Prabhupada’s books , please post them here

Regards,
Sunil Vaswani

Sanil, 17th November 2012

Hare Krishna Mataji,

Kindly accept my humble obeisances,

All glories to Srila Gurudeva

Following understanding helped me a lot:

o  Srila Prabhupada says in the purport of Bhagavad-gita that one with the conviction that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead will receive the maximum benefit of reading Bhagavad-gita.  So, I wanted to be convinced

o   When I searched, I found out that the acharyas in the disciplic succession, pray to Lord and also spread Krishna Consciousness not for any material achievement or sense enjoyment. In fact they have rejected all material
benefits on their path of spiritual progress.

o   Srila Gurudeva sacrificed everything material he had except a guitar, with which he had a strong attachment.  Later on Srila Gurudeva said that he even sold that guitar for paying the rent of the temple.  I just heard a seminar
of Srila Gurudeva in the net http://www.theultimateselfrealization.com in which he says the following in between the seminar:

“I have been married and my wife is sitting here now, Vishnupriya Devi Dasi. We married since 1984. That means almost 29 years married. We remain brahmachari the whole time, strict brahmachari. I am not saying that every householder should do that, because householder life is meant for producing children. But Prabhupada said if a householder does not want to have sex life, which is very good. They can remain brahmachari. They can do that. There is a very nice verse in Srimad Bhagavatam, 7th canto (SB 7.12.11). Srila Prabhupada talks about the rules and regulations for the householders and sanyasis. I recommend that all householders should study this verse very carefully.” So, I realised that they are selfless people; they are not interested in any material achievement or sense enjoyment. Hence, I did not find any reason why I should not believe them. I feel and understand the unlimited mercy and
blessings they shower when I associate with them.

o   I also noted that associating with devotees help me lot to be focused.  By this virtual network, it is very easy for me to have association all the time.

o  Also, I realized the importance to finalize what I need at the end. So, I came to following conclusion:

o   I don’t want to be a miser – since, miser is satisfied only when he satisfy himself.  The miserly satisfaction is incomplete and temporary and doesn’t provide any real satisfaction.

o   I wanted to be a selfless lover.  So, in that process, I understood and convinced that only Srila Prabhupada’s teaching can guide me to realize these goals.

o   I wanted to achieve perfection:  To achieve perfection, I am convinced about Srila Prabhupada’s teaching that:
v  I should fully surrender to a bona-fide spiritual master who is perfectly situated, so that I can get proper guidance.
v  I should offer everything to Krishna, and my only aim should be to satisfy the senses of Krishna.  So, I need to do everything very carefully and lovingly before I offer it to Krishna and I should not do anything which Krishna
doesn’t like.  And at the end, when I achieve this, I am convinced that it will help me in the following:

o   I will be in perfect love relationship with Krishna, since I am serving Him unconditionally.

o   I will love everybody and everything (and I will not hate anybody or anything) since I know that everything is Krishna’s energy and Krishna’s arrangement.

o   With Krishna’s mercy, I will be able to transcend all dualities.

o   I will achieve spiritual perfection and unlimited bliss, since I am doing everything perfectly and unconditionally and there is no sin associated with it, and lastly,

o   I am protected, since Krishna had declared it through Arjuna that my devotee will never perish.

your servant,
Sanil kumar
“Please subscribe to daily inspirational emails from His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari, written fresh every day from his travels around the world sharing the highest spiritual knowledge with everyone. Sign up now at http://www.backtohome.com”

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