Ascending vs. Descending Process of knowledge

What is knowledge? What is ignorance? How do we acquire knowledge? Which method actually works? Finding out things the ascending way, or hearing from an authority? How to acquire perfect knowledge beyond all doubt?

Knowledge is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?

Are these people getting anywhere? Are they “progressing”?

With knowledge, comes power. Power to do good, and also power to do evil. Knowledge can be a liberator, but also can be a tool for enforcing bondage.

Also, what qualifies as knowledge anyway? If, for example, a person acquired some knowledge on “how to rob a bank” and applies that knowledge, landing in prison, or even if they escape somehow, was that really knowledge? Or was it ignorance?

There are 2 main types of knowledge:

  1. Knowledge of the material world -material knowledge
  2. Knowledge of what lies beyond this material world through the scriptures – spiritual knowledge – In Sanskrit “परोक्ष” or “parokṣa”

There are many means of acquiring knowledge:

  1. By Direct experience or perception – In sanskrit “प्रत्यक्ष” or “pratyakṣa”
  2. By hypothesis/logic/conjecture/guessing – In sanskrit “अनुमान” or “anumāna”
  3. By hearing from a higher authority – In Sanskrit “शब्द” or “śabda”

Ultimately, there are 2 fundamental processes of acquiring knowledge:

  1. Ascending Process – build up knowledge from building blocks – In Sanskrit “आरोहपन्था” or “ārohapanthā
  2. Descending Process – Knowledge descending directly from God and His messengers – In Sanskrit “अवरोहपन्था” or “avarohapanthā

In an article, with an example of an ant who wanted to map the Universe, I discussed the futility of the ascending process of knowledge, especially about items that are outside of our realm of perception.

Much of what we know exists, is actually too subtle to perceive.

These are the material elements, listed in the Bhagavad Gita:

Gross Material Elements:

  1. Earth
  2. Water
  3. Fire
  4. Air
  5. Ether (Space/Sky)

Subtle Material Elements:

  1. Mind
  2. Intelligence
  3. False Ego

BG भूमिरापोऽनलो वायु: खं मनो बुद्धिरेव च ।
अहङ्कार इतीयं मे भिन्ना प्रकृतिरष्टधा ॥ ४ ॥

bhūmir āpo ’nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego – all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

https://vedabase.io/en/library/bg/7/4/

The Material-Spiritual Disconnect

Earth is the most gross of the material elements, more subtle is water, even more subtle is air, and ether is quite subtle, you can’t touch or feel space, but we can still perceive it. Now, when we get to the mind, that is even more subtle. Intelligence is still more subtle, and the most subtle material element is false ego, our sense of identity.

However, none of the material elements can directly approach that which is non-material, namely the spiritual is outside of the realm of material elements, even subtle.

If we see our material means of acquiring knowledge, the mind, intelligence, and our sense of identity are all material in nature, and therefore, the ascending process of acquiring knowledge cannot possibly extend to the spiritual realm.

There is another main reason why the ascending process of knowledge is flawed… all of us who are “conditioned” to accept a material identity, have 4 defects:

  1. Tendency to be illusioned (In Sanskrit “भ्रम”or “bhrama”) – we often misunderstand facts and are illusioned about things as they are
  2. Tendency to make mistakes (In Sanskrit “प्रमाद” or “pramāda”) – there is no conditioned souls who can say they never make mistakes
  3. Tendency to cheat others (In Sanskrit “विप्रलिप्सा”or “vipralipsā”) – this is a great weakness, to want to appear better than we are, or know something we don’t, etc.
  4.  We possess imperfect senses (In Sanskrit “करण पाटव” or “karaṇa-pāṭava”) – all our senses are quite imperfect, and we miss a lot from our senses

So, with these 4 defects, it is impossible to acquire perfect knowledge using only our senses. Why is that? It is because with an imperfect instrument, you cannot make something that is perfect. No matter how hard we try, our imperfections stand in the way.

The common example is if we’re doing some mathematical calculation or solving an equation… a tiny mistake somewhere along the way can get us a wrong answer.

Let’s say, for example, someone didn’t know who their father was… they can do some detective work, or a DNA test of every man in the world, or they can take the answer from their mother. The mother’s answer is authoritative and a lot easier too.

Reconnecting Material to the Spiritual

The only way to acquire perfect knowledge, then, is through the descending process, “avarohapantha”. In this process, the Supreme Absolute Perfect (generically called God, specifically named Krishna, Allah, Rama, Govinda, Buddha, Jehovah, Yahweh, etc.) conveys the perfect knowledge, and whoever hears this knowledge passes it on without addition or subtraction.

Perfect Knowledge means something that never changes. Compare this to our ascending process of knowledge. Researchers make a career out of making mistakes! First they publish one paper hypothesizing (and sometimes also offering “proof”) one particular thing… the laypeople accept that as the truth, and then a little while later, that or another researcher publishes another paper contradicting the original hypothesis or proof. In this way, the so-called philosophers and scientists bumble about, going from imperfection to imperfection. This is not called knowledge, this is called nescience, or ignorance.

Why is that? Because material knowledge gives the impression of advancement, whereas it actually traps us in bigger and bigger problems, requiring more and ever more complexity. A material “solution” is only another problem in disguise… it is simply creating one problem in place of another. Therefore, material knowledge is not called knowledge, but ignorance. And those who pursue material knowledge excessively are said to be ignorant.

So therefore, spiritual knowledge is worth pursuing, and such knowledge cannot be “discovered/created/invented” by anyone else other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

धर्मं तु साक्षाद्भ‍गवत्प्रणीतं
न वै विदुऋर्षयो नापि देवा: ।
न सिद्धमुख्या असुरा मनुष्या:
कुतो नु विद्याधरचारणादय: ॥ १९ ॥

dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītaṁ
na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ
na siddha-mukhyā asurā manuṣyāḥ
kuto nu vidyādhara-cāraṇādayaḥ

Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas.

https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/6/3/19/

But, one may ask, it’s not like the Supreme Personality of Godhead is directly perceivable to a materially conditioned soul. So what is to be done?

Fortunately, there is a clear way…

स्वयम्भूर्नारद: शम्भु: कुमार: कपिलो मनु: ।
प्रह्लादो जनको भीष्मो बलिर्वैयासकिर्वयम् ॥ २० ॥
द्वादशैते विजानीमो धर्मं भागवतं भटा: ।
गुह्यं विशुद्धं दुर्बोधं यं ज्ञात्वामृतमश्नुते ॥ २१ ॥

svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ
kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ
prahlādo janako bhīṣmo
balir vaiyāsakir vayam

dvādaśaite vijānīmo
dharmaṁ bhāgavataṁ bhaṭāḥ
guhyaṁ viśuddhaṁ durbodhaṁ
yaṁ jñātvāmṛtam aśnute

Lord Brahmā, Bhagavān Nārada, Lord Śiva, the four Kumāras, Lord Kapila [the son of Devahūti], Svāyambhuva Manu, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Janaka Mahārāja, Grandfather Bhīṣma, Bali Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and I myself know the real religious principle. My dear servants, this transcendental religious principle, which is known as bhāgavata-dharma, or surrender unto the Supreme Lord and love for Him, is uncontaminated by the material modes of nature. It is very confidential and difficult for ordinary human beings to understand, but if by chance one fortunately understands it, he is immediately liberated, and thus he returns home, back to Godhead.

https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/6/3/20-21/

Now, at least some of those personalities have established disciplic successions on this planet.

There are 4 main authorized disciplic successions to receive perfect knowledge in discipic successions. A disciplic succession is known as “Sampradaya” or “That which gives completely”.

A mango, intact, passed down

A useful example is that if a ripe mango is high in a tree, then if the mango is handed from person to person from those who are at various heights pass the mango down from hand to hand, vs. trying to throw the mango down to the ground…

A Sampradaya delivers spiritual knowledge perfectly, without addition or subtraction
  1. Brahma Sampradaya and its branches, especially expounded by the great teacher Madhva, Lord Chaitanya, and their followers.
  2. Rudra Sampradaya and its branches, especially expounded by the great teacher Vishnu Swami and his followers.
  3. Sri Sampradaya and its branches, begun by Lakshmi devi, the Goddess of Fortune, consort of Lord Narayana, and especially expounded by the great teacher Sri Ramanuja and his followers.
  4. Kumara Sampradaya and its branches, especially expounded by the great teacher Sri Nimbarka and his followers.

What about the rest?

To the extent the teachings of others are in line with one of these descending lines of discipic succession, they are valid, and anything outside of these is at best a stepping stone to one of these 4 lines of disciplic succession. In the worst case, it is a materialistic business masquerading as a genuine spiritual tradition.

Those who claim to be part of a certain tradition but add or subtract from the fundamental principles or twist the teachings are called “apasampradayas” or “anti disciplic successions”.

His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari

By the mercy of my parents and then my spiritual master His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari who is a disciple of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada The Founder Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, even though personally unworthy, I am connected to one of these lines of disciplic succession, called the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya, and seeking to pass on those pure instructions to whoever may want to follow, without adding or subtracting any principle, only, if need be, adjusting details to suit the individual and times.

His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)

And what is a principle and what is a detail? That, Srila Prabhupada said, requires some intelligence. I pray for this intelligence, which in my case, I simply ask my spiritual master with a clear description of context.

Ultimately however, knowledge coming from the scriptures and the spiritual master in disciplic succession must be realized in the heart through a process of personal effort (sadhana) and purification. Then the paroksha jnana or scriptural knowledge through scripture, becomes “aparoksha” or that which is beyond the reach of the material senses. In order to experience such knowledge in action, one’s senses must be spiritually awakened, or re-spiritualized.

Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead

Pure devotional service to Krishna is the Ultimate goal of all knowledge, and anything besides this is a waste of time.

Questions? I remain your servant on your spiritual journey! Hare Krishna!

The Sun, The Moon, Distances, and The Universal Arrangement

How is it that the statements of the Vedic Scriptures in the matter of dimensions of the sun, moon, and the distances between them don’t match with the modern scientific theories?

Partha Das, 28 October 2019

Hare Krsna, Dandavats,

Could you throw some light on the shloka from the 5th canto of Bhagavatam 5.25.2.

The sun globe, which is a source of heat, extends for 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles]. The moon extends for 20,000 yojanas [160,000 miles], and Rāhu extends for 30,000 yojanas [240,000 miles].

Thanks

Partha Das

Subodh, 29 October 2019

Cosmic and materials knowledge can only affirmed the belief of Krishna’s expansion but can’t get rid of from birth and death cycles, without yug mantras given by mahaprabhu, hence chant hare krishna simply be happy, 

Subodh

Partha Das, 29 October 2019

Very true Prabhuji. But a foundation made of solid knowledge will make us very good devotees of the Lord

Partha Das

Manoj Tripathi, 29th October 2019

Hare Krishna Partha Prabhu.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada,

All glories to Guru Maharaja.

The verse number is 5.24.2

Here, Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī is talking about the sizes of Sun, Moon, and Rahu. Before this verse, he talked about the distance of Rahu from the Sun. 

To adherents of modern science, it may all sound very confusing, or even laughable. However, it should be noted that the Jyotisha Shastras deal with planetary orbits and sizes, and they have been predicting eclipses, seasons etc. very well [1]. Modern measurements on size of the planets and distances (including Sun and moon!) match well with the data given in Surya Siddhanta [2]. Bhagavatam’s picture of the universe may seem to contradict Jyotisha Shastras at some points; however, a detailed study would reveal that everything is in order. And Srila Prabhupada wanted his PhDs to go through these details and construct a model of the universe presented in Bhagavatam and display it in Mayapur [3].   

[1] http://richardlthompson.com/book/vedic-cosmography-and-astronomy

[2] https://vedabase.io/en/library/cc/adi/3/8/

[3] https://vanisource.org/w/index.php?title=760427_-_Letter_to_Svarupa_Damodara_written_from_Auckland&t=hl#terms=Ph.D

Manoj Tripathi

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 30 October 2019

Dear Sriman Partha,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Gurudeva.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

All gratitude to all the group members for participating in this worldwide group…

Srimad Bhagavatam is Amala Purana, the spotless Purana, is the literary incarnation of Krishna Himself. Everything mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatam is the Supreme Absolute Truth, even if we may struggle to understand how. Verses and purports that I read in the Bhagavatam say ten years ago sometimes make sense to me now, after all the additional context, or in a class, or somehow by Guru’s and Krishna’s mercy.

What is your actual concern with SB 5.25.2?

ŚB 5.25.2

yasyedaṁ kṣiti-maṇḍalaṁ bhagavato ’nanta-mūrteḥ sahasra-śirasa ekasminn eva śīrṣaṇi dhriyamāṇaṁ siddhārtha iva lakṣyate.

yasyedaṁ kṣiti-maṇḍalaṁ bhagavato ’nanta-mūrteḥ sahasra-śirasa ekasminn eva śīrṣaṇi dhriyamāṇaṁ siddhārtha iva lakṣyate.

Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued: This great universe, situated on one of Lord Anantadeva’s thousands of hoods, appears just like a white mustard seed. It is infinitesimal compared to the hood of Lord Ananta.

There is no purport.

Did you mean some other statement?

Mahabhagavat Das

Partha Das, 31 October 2019

Hare Krsna, Dandavats,

Apologies for mentioning the wrong shloka number.

The correct shloka is 5.24.2

The sun globe, which is a source of heat, extends for 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles]. The moon extends for 20,000 yojanas [160,000 miles], and Rāhu extends for 30,000 yojanas [240,000 miles].

your Servant

Partha Das

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 12 November 2019

Dear Sriman Partha,

Hare Krishna!

Yes, as I stated before, the Srimad Bhagavatam is spotless, faultless. Everything mentioned in the Bhagavatam is the Supreme Absolute Truth. We may not be able to understand it, just as sometimes ordinary people cannot understand the words of a great genius…That being known, what exactly is your question?

Sincerely,

Mahabhagavat Das

Partha Das, 12 November 2019

Hare Krsna,

My question is that the shloka is not clear wrt what we learned in school about the sizes of these planets and the distance between them.

Dandavats

Partha Das

Mahabhagavat Das SDA, 13 November 2019

Dear Sriman Partha,

Hare Krishna!

Yes, there are 2 ways of receiving knowledge – one is called the “arohapanthi” or the “ascending process”. The other is called “avarohapanthi” or “descending process”. The material scientists follow the ascending process (base one fact upon another that is proven), we follow the descending process. Our process is that there is the Creator and we get all our information from Him. In theory, both processes should reach the same conclusions, but in the ascending process, there are a lot of pitfalls, mistakes, etc., and the ascending process cannot discover information that is spiritual in nature.

It is important not to position the scripture and material science as competitors… Chaitanya Charan Prabhu makes that clear that both deal with different subject matters and have totally different perspectives, and he goes on to show how both are correct.

Here is an example from Chaitanya Charan Prabhu… if you mix charcoal powder with white chalk powder, you get a grey substance. Everyone can see that it is a grey substance. But when you look at the powder under the microscope there is no grey substance to be found, it is either white particles or black particles, no grey. The person looking with the naked eye says grey, the person with the microscope says black and white, and both argue – but both are right. He has numerous examples where the scripture and material science say different things but both are correct…

There is also a BBT book called “The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness” by Bhakti Swarup Damodar Maharaja who was also a scientist before he took Sannyas and even after that he founded the Bhaktivedanta Institute. That book is a must-read for anyone who is interested in these sorts of subjects.

The structure of the Universe is vast, but still material, and yes, the ascending process could possibly discover the entire material truth, but it may take a long time, if at all.

Our mundane material textbooks are presently based on a big fat lie – that this Universe came from nothing. The Big Bang theory is just a theory with no conclusive evidence to support it, it is a fairy tale. Something cannot come from nothing, not even one little electron, or one nanometer of space can be created from nothing. So, the fact that we learned that in our textbooks means that the knowledge we studied there is imperfect.

When I was in school and university, I saw that with Maths and Physics, one little mistake in a proof or derivation can lead us to the wrong conclusion… in those cases, my mistakes were caught by my more expert classmates, seniors, or teachers. But in the realm of theoretical physics, as the field gets more and more specialized and sub-specialized, the reviewer pool gets very very small, to the extent that on a certain topic maybe 3 people in the world understand enough to be able to review the papers. Then, what those three people do is, collude and write papers that they each other review and approve – thus getting tenures and grants from various agencies. No one else can possibly know that they are making a mistake – the fields are too arcane. This was revealed to Srila Gurudeva when he was spreading Krishna consciousness in a small University town in America by a Post-doc researcher who was coming to the temple. I have also met many researchers who said the same thing… basically it is a closed club where nepotism and corruption exists. Sometimes the researcher does research and publishes it knowing it to be wrong, and then the following year, they just publish another paper saying they were wrong.

Our mundane material textbooks are consequently revised many times… this is true of medical texts, and many other fields of material knowledge.

But the Vedic scriptures are coming from Krishna, perfect, constant, not revised, no additions or subtractions, no errata, no addenda.

With regard to astronomy and so on, one of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada, Sadaputa Dasa (Richard Thompson) (who passed away recently) has written many books that help to understand the Vedic astronomy better. And also, the Temple of the Vedic Planetariaum being built in Mayapur will help with that. Also, books and writings by Drutakarma Prabhu (Michael Cremo) are helpful.

For example, Sadaputa Prabhu said that the “islands of earth” mentioned in the Bhagavatam are different planet in the earthly system of planets… and that the “flatness of the earth” describes “planetary rings”… To be honest the writings are so intricate that I didn’t invest my time and effort into understanding them.

Until then, we say what we need to say to pass exams, get jobs, etc., and it is also possible we don’t fully understand how the Bhagavatam could be correct. But, after reflecting on all these types of questions which I also had many of, I can decide how important this is to our spiritual progress to know the distance of the sun and moon etc.

Does this help?

Sincerely,

Mahabhagavat Das

Sundar Gopal Das, 13 November 2019

Dear Bhakta Partha,

In addition to the wonderful reflection by HG Mahabhagavat Prabhuji, you can hear the answer from HG Chaitanya Charan Prabhuji by clicking the following link:

With regards,

Sundar Gopal Das 

Partha Das, 13 November 2019

Yes Prabhuji. I guess Krsna will keep on revealing more things to us, as we progress in Krsna consciousness.

Thanks

Partha Das

Jayakrishna, 25 November 2019

Hare Krishna!

I think The following conversation is really addressing this question

“Dr. Singh. Because the scientists haven’t detected any water on the surface of the moon, they’ve concluded that no life could survive there.

Śrīla Prabhupāda. They haven’t seen the whole surface of the moon. Suppose someone were to come here from another planet, drop into the Arabian Desert and then return home. Could he come to a complete conclusion about the nature of the whole earth? His knowledge would not be complete”

(The First Morning Walk: April 18, 1973)

It is only recently the science  proved the presence of water in moon surface!! 

With humble obeisances,

Jayakrishna Ramanuja dasa

Partha Das, 26 November 2019

Yes. It seems scientists keep changing their statements too often. Difficult to believe their theories like big bang , Darwin theory etc.

Partha Das

Please subscribe to daily inspirational emails from His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari (Writings and lectures archived at sda-archives.com), written fresh every day from his travels around the world sharing the highest spiritual knowledge with everyone. Sign up now at www.joincourse.com